Were the disciples saved before the resurrection?

ILUVLIGHT.

That makes no sense. Do you say you can have faith yet not be saved? Can a man that pleases God be thrown into Hell? What crazy talk is this?
JN 13:10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
If you do not know what this passage means then you are in good company. The Archbishop of Canterbury does not know either. Once a year he puts a towel around himself and, bowl in hand, washes some invited tootsies.
If you do not know what this passage means then ask God to explain it to you.

They were saved, they were clean and they acknowledged Jesus Christ before Pentecost. They cast out demons healed the sick walked on water and praised the Lord what more do you want? Have you the faith to do what Peter did? Walk on water then.
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
NIV.
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

that thy faith fail not:
John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
And Jesus always gets what He wants; ..."Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." John 11:41.
His faith failed not!
when you have turned back,... and when thou art converted,
This is a reference to Peter's coming betrayal. I would like to make the points that Peter's actions were no better than Judas' and that Peter never asked for forgiveness before he was forgiven for the denials of faith, how could he? That he did at a later date goes without saying.

I got me a modern bible, as you cannot understand ye olde English I'd advise you to take the same course.

johnp.

 

My question to Wes has not been answered. Do you speak to the spirits as well ILUVLIGHT?
This was the scripture;
1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
This was the answer Wes gave.
'That's fine Johnp, but the reference 1 john 4:2 is to aid us in identifying those spirits that come to us to deceive us or to help us. The spirit realm is quite busy with both. So if you are getting spiritual persuasions you'd better ask that spirit, "who do you say that Jesus is, Those who answer that Jesus is God come in the flesh are from God, all others should be shut out! They are deceivers and liars!'
Do you agree with this and do you speak to spirits as well?

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

I have no argument. Rom 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
You truly have lost connection with the Head when you say that the scriptures say faith does not save you.
RO 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Jolly good book Romans don't you think?

I'll ask it again, do you not understand about the bath the disciples had? A bath that cleansed them so that they were clean? The feet washing, 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

That is why Calvinists say that, because scripture says that. But they do not say that regeneration brings understanding but that The Holy Spirit teaches us as He wills.

Trust in Jesus is all that is required by God. John 6:29.
1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Cor 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Trust in Jesus is all that is required by God. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

johnp.

 

You are forbidden to speak to the spirits. You speak to them. What are their names?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't ask them their names, I ask them who Jesus is! If they don't answer according to scripture I refuse to listen to their "councel".

 

ILUVLIGHT.

I'm sure that if he has a complaint he will bring it to my attention.

Where have I jumped to any conclusion?
That's fine Johnp, but the reference 1 john 4:2 is to aid us in identifying those spirits that come to us to deceive us or to help us.
This is the statement, above and below, I am working from. In it he says that there are some good spirits and some bad that interact with him. He says 'us' but that must not be construed as 'me' and I am sure most others.
The spirit realm is quite busy with both.
He claims a familiarity with the spirit realm.
So if you are getting spiritual persuasions you'd better ask that spirit, "who do you say that Jesus is,
'So if I'. What's he mean 'if I'? But worse still he dares give me advise to do that which is forbidden! What conclusion did I jump to? He tells me to consult with the spirits and to believe what they say! The course that Wes espouses is a course only a fool would take. Wes has taken it and his doctrine supports his claim to be involved with the spirit world. It is a course that only a murderer advises. Wes has advised me to do the same.
Those who answer that Jesus is God come in the flesh are from God, all others should be shut out! They are deceivers and liars!
All others should be shut out? Some should be let in! He talks to the spirits which is forbidden in the strongest language. It is forbidden in the strongest language is it not? Answer this please.

So your glib reply, "If this is true then we had all better stop our praying. God is spirit." Was a glib reply on a very important issue was it not?

He goes onto say, "I don't ask them their names, I ask them who Jesus is! If they don't answer according to scripture I refuse to listen to their "councel"."
So he does not ask who he is talking to but does take their counsel, with discrimination.
"I ask them who Jesus is!" Is his reply. Where did I jump to a conclusion? Wes talks with the spirits and advises others to do the same.

I never said he did say he spoke to the dead, I said he spoke with the spirits and he says he does as well. You it was that conjured up the dead. The dead did not come by me or Wes. Pay attention to what is written.

I'll work on your second post as I await your reply.

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

I'm surprised as well. Maybe the teacher I had knew what he was taking about.
Gal 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law so you must be misunderstanding how the Jews were saved. Unless of course none were.

1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law.
Ex 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
Either they are lost or you are. Abraham did not know His name, is he saved or not? The father of the faith is what? Saved by law or faith?

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law. Abraham did not know His name. You misunderstand.

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law.
JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
JOB 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
JOB 19:27 I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

You are in error are you not?
1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

johnp.

 

Johnp,
If you are not familiar with the spirit realm what proof to you offer of your salvation?

After all you talk of the Holy Spirit, you Talk of God the Father, both of which are spirit!

 

ILUVLIGHT.

And out of the mouth of an Arminian comes more error.

RO 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Can you not understand? Lk 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
That is what people are judged on. There is and was no other way. If a person broke the law then that in and of itself is condemnation. Because they faithfully kept the Law by sacrifice of what ever they placed on the alter. Cuts no ice.

I see the number of bibles one possesses does not increase understanding. How can you keep the law by sacrifice?

If you understood scripture correctly then you would not make the error of the unbelievers. God condemned the world and Noah and his people were the only ones found righteous. What would the reason be to visit the rest in prison when the sentence has been passed? What are you saying, all those condemned in the flood are saved and Noah went to keep them company until Jesus arrived?

Ok, let's see, Abraham went into where when he died? Was it Abraham's bosom? Or was it prison? Or was it to be with his friend?
Noah and his family died. When they died they went to Abrahams bosom? Or prison? Or to be with their friend God?
He took the theif there. Where, to prison? Jesus promised him that he would be in Paradise that day. Is the prison Paradise?
2 Cor 12:4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4 was caught up to paradise...
Jesus took the thief to Heaven when he died.

What is a credit card mentality?

LK 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

johnp.

 

Wes.

Wes.

My words are the only indication of my faith on these boards. Judge me by my words. That is how I judge you. By your words.

1TI 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

You do not know who they are yet you listen to them and not to God? Why? Does God not talk to you?
LEV 20:6 " `I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.
But you don't turn to spiritists do you? You are one!

Now let's see how full of pride you are! Submit to God and tell the truth, He is faithful and just and will forgive you your sins, or carry on being the mouthpiece of Satan.

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

I've put up with enough of your twistings. It was not me who said anyone was. That's just a lie plain and simple and based on your corrupt imagination.
You have given no quarter with your lies. I told you earlier that you should pay attention did I not?

Abrahams righteousness is Jesus Christ.

John 8:56 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Just more of the hissing I hear. Why do you emphasis what I believe as if I did not? What are you trying to do?

I'll see you there then. You won't be able to miss me as I'll be one of the judges.

Why did you not answer my question or do you defend spiritism with your silence?
You accused me of what you do. Did I jump to a conclusion or not? If not why not apologise for the affront? If I did why don't you show me where? Pride got your tongue has it?

Wes asked;
If you are not familiar with the spirit realm what proof to you offer of your salvation?
My reply was;
My words are the only indication of my faith on these boards. Judge me by my words. That is how I judge you. By your words.
His words were, "I don't ask them their names, I ask them who Jesus is! If they don't answer according to scripture I refuse to listen to their "councel". Which is witch stuff.
So what do I think he is saying? What he says that's what. Why don't you let him answer for himself? Is it because you have seen the fatal gaff?

Oh yea sure, do you happen to know where they are hanging about so as I don't miss the next showing?

There you go again. But what do you mean? How do you know it is different to speaking to them? This needs an answer. What's conjuring anyway? 2 a : to summon or constrain. Why don't you get a dictionary? You have too many bibles. HaHa!

Thank you but I know how to behave. Commanding them to leave is one thing and speaking to them is another is it not? This is a little different from what we are speaking about is it not? Answer that because I see the twist. Wes strikes up a conversation with them! That is what he said. Does he not?
Now if he meant; This scripture looks a good en I'll use it here to beat down the opposition, and he made a foolish move, and he has indeed made a foolish move, then all he needs to do is correct himself. Nothing easier for one that saves himself. One that can command the fallen angels to the truth can summon up enough courage to admit a serious error. Any Calvinist caught with his trousers down would do no less.

I'll give you a shot at me.
I tell you the truth, stories of other people's exploits leave me cold. Why do you pass on as fact something that you have read outside scripture? That it is true is by the way, there is enough in scripture to show that possession is real. Where have you read of such things that you should think I am impressed with man?

How is it that evertime you open your mouth you smear my God? My God is the Head of the Body and as such the Body is always pure, blameless and forgiven. God is Who you smear with your generalised attack against the Body of Christ.

I make an appeal to you ILUVLIGHT. Live up to your name. I have a great hope for you. Your writing stlye, there is something in it that suggests you have a heart. It's hard to discern from your stance but easy on the eye.
I have prayed for you. That you change camps. That your conclusions become the right conclusions. That your affiliations become engrossed with Jesus.

johnp.

 

Johnp said, You do not know who they are yet you listen to them and not to God? Why? Does God not talk to you?</font>[/QUOTE]Did you even read my post? What part of "I refuse to listen to their "councel" do you interpret to mean that I listen to evil spirits?

Yes, I talk to God all the time, and no I do not hear an audible response from Him, but He does convey his answer to my prayers in many ways, through His word, the result of situations and things I've prayed about, through other's deeds and responses to me, and in many other ways.

Johnp,
You really need to get a grasp on reality!

 

Yes I did. Not that you listen to fallen angels, but you said you listen to those that give you the correct answer. The correct answer comes from fallen angels.

Anyway that don't matter now. I have invoked the rebuke.

I wait on that, the reply that God gives.
I've never said this before. Could be interesting but knowing God it won't be.

johnp.