1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Were the disciples saved before the resurrection?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Jan 10, 2005.

Top Posters
Page 5 of 6
  1. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I presume that you are saying that those before Before Christ could not be saved before Christ because the atonement for sin had not yet taken place that lifted the penalty of sin from mankind, therefore none before Christ were actually saved by Christ. There were blood sacrifices of Atonement, at least one per year! But what happened to the people between those atoning sacrifices?

    I can only presume that you understand that the atonement is a ONCE for ALL atonement for Sin whose affect covers ALL MANKIND, and that those who had faith before Christ are Just as saved through faith as those since Jesus Christ who likewise are saved through FAITH ALONE, because SIN has been atoned ONCE for ALL.

    Therefore, from the first man, until God puts an end to this present earth, ALL who have Faith in God are Saved, ALL who lack faith in God are NOT Saved.

    If that is not what you mean, then you do not have a correct understanding.
     
    #81 Wes Outwest, Jan 16, 2005
  2. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Aaron;
    Of course by saying such you are claiming that you do.
    You post this;
    In an attempt to prove that Abraham's faith saved Him. However no where in this verse does it say anything about Abraham being saved.
    Then you tell me your done with me, because you really don't want to be embarrassed by how little you actually know. I do not accept the nonsense you've presented. Which clearly doesn't say that Abraham believed in Christ. Then you refuse to see that there is no other way to the Father except through Christ. So tell us Aaron where was Christ in Abraham's faith? please use scripture. Your silence only proves you don't know eh.
    Actually this isn't true at all. I'm saying no one is saved with out Christ as there Savior.
    No Actually you failed to prove they had the same faith in Christ that all must have in order to be saved.
    You are only done because you can't give an answer of How Abraham was saved with out the Atonement being paid. And How Abraham could be saved without Christ.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
    #82 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 16, 2005
  3. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Wes;
    What I have said from the beginning is that the Old Tesament believers were set aside until the Atonement was made.They were neither in Heaven or Hell but waiting in captivity for the atonement to be paid and to be given the opportunity to have the gospel be preached to them in order they could be saved by Christ. The blood sacrifices only showed man's obedience to God's Law. They did not have any saving power at all.
    You should study this passage below;
    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Now think about what is being said here. Surely man doesn't get a second chance, but he does get a chance. Those in the old testament didn't have there true chance, unless they heard the voice of Christ after they were already dead.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #83 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 16, 2005
  4. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    ILUVLIGHT.

    RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

    Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

    johnp.
     
    #84 johnp., Jan 16, 2005
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Iluvlight,
    I knew that's what you believe and I believe the same as you. I was simply attempting to make your previous post clear to the doubters who questioned your stance.

    Johnp,
    Those who were BC did not have a first chance to Hear the Gospel of Christ! It was only those who had faith in God who had their faith counted to them as Righteousness. That is why Jesus went to them "in prison" and preached to them, and why at Jesus death the graves were opened those who were dead were recognized in town. Must have been a hair raising experience.

    The second time he appears, Will be to set up His kingdom on this earth to reign for a millennium. There will be a first resurrection and those who are resurrected shall be those who died in service to Jesus in this natural life. They shall reign with Jesus during that millennium. Then at the close of the millennial reign of the Christ, there will be a second resurrection unto judgment. Those possessing FAITH in God the Son, shall not be JUDGED (John 3:18), those lacking faith shall be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
     
    #85 Wes Outwest, Jan 16, 2005
  6. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Wes;
    I'm not saying faith in God although it is a good thing to have faith in Him. What I'm saying is that only faith in Christ has any saving power. We are saved by faith in Christ alone. You can obey the Law all you want to, but it never saved a single person. Neither did the sacrifice of animals. Salvation is through Christ alone simply put there is no one in the Old Testament who was saved until Christ came and died for our sins. Don't you see this is why Christ had to come and die. It's the reason He did, the old dispensation wouldn't save you. It only set you aside for the coming of Christ.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #86 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 16, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Like Grace, Faith has no saving power, only God has that power.

    Faith is the mark in man that God looks for when saving man. God does not save those who do not carry the mark of FAITH.
     
    #87 Wes Outwest, Jan 16, 2005
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    ILUVLIGHT.

    posted 04 January, 2005 17:57 Calvinist claim they are elected. (Page 9)
    What in torment? Reconcile those two statements you made them both.

    johnp.
     
    #88 johnp., Jan 16, 2005
  9. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    ILUVLIGHT.

    posted 04 January, 2005 17:57 Calvinist claim they are elected. (Page 9)
    Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Why a chance when it is said that if Moses and the prophets are not listened to then Christ will make no difference.

    johnp.
     
    #89 johnp., Jan 16, 2005
  10. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Wes;
    I want to make sure I'm being as clear as possible. Sometimes a guy knows what he's thinking, but it becomes hard to express correctly in a language that seems so complicated.

    I believe in the trinity that God in reality is three seperate personalities in the same body. Although all three are the same God. Yet never the less seperate in there purpose. The Father is the main sorce of power and although there is nothing He can't do. He never the less doesn't do everything. He has given authority to His Son for certain things and the Holy Spirit has His part as well. They all work together but all have different things they do. God the Father has given authority to His son to save men. This is His authority while the Father and the Spirit do help they do not actually save men, because it is the authority of Christ alone. The reason it is His authority is because it is The Father's will. He has given all authority to His Son because of His Love for man. His dieing for us was an act of pure love.

    We are in fact saved by several things one is our part and that part is trust in Christ. We are saved by Faith in Christ alone. but it is not of ourselves but of God. We aquire faith by the hearing of God's word. So ultimately faith is a result of God's works in His word. We are also saved by Grace because if we didn't have the favor of God we would never have had the gospel. We would never have had faith in Christ. No man saves Himself this is true. However our faith does depend on our trust. With out which we would never accept His word that we might have that faith.
    There is no regeneration before faith. There is no regeneration before grace. And yes there is no regeneration before our trust in Christ alone. There is no other name by which we can be saved. The Christ is the only one that saves. He is our Salvation He is our redeemer He is our messiah. Only Jesus Christ can save.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #90 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 16, 2005
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is so difficult about understanding the essence of Grace, the essence of faith, and the essence of mercy? None of them have an inate power in themselves. They are behavioral attributes of the one possessing them. By behavioral attribute I mean the manner in which one behaves toward others. Faith is an internal trait of the one possessing it, Faith has objects to which faith is shown. Faith establishes other behavioral traites that the person possessing it does toward others. Faith does not have the power to save one, but it has the effect of making one saveable because it is the condition God seeks in man before HE saves man.
     
    #91 Wes Outwest, Jan 16, 2005
  12. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Wes;
    As long as that faith is placed in the one with the authority to save this is true. There is no Salvation in any other but Jesus Christ. You can have all the faith in the world but if it is misplaced faith you will still die.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #92 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 17, 2005
  13. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Everyone;
    So many want to believe that the OT saints were saved. If so how would you explain Davids soul being in Hell until the return of Christ?

    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

    RC stated that he wasn't in Hell but in paradise. I agree that he was in Paradise but in hell never the less.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #93 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 24, 2005
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello ILUVLIGHT.

    Listen man. Since the KJV was writen the word Hell has changed it's meaning. That's why I told you that you can't speakie ye olde English.
    Hell in ye olde English meant grave. Hell became the word for that place of everlasting punishment after the word meant grave. Replace the word in your KJV with grave. Update free.

    RC stated that he wasn't in Hell but in paradise. I agree that he was in Paradise but in hell never the less.

    Surprising enough to read this once but it was so good you say it twice! Paradise in Hell! A true revelation or what?
    I thought of you last night. One of the passages I pasted says, "HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,"

    Do you see that? They, those who wandered around in the desert for forty years, they had the gospel preached to them just as we have!
    I have entered His rest. Just the same as those that believed entered His rest so did I. There is no distance between God and His Children. Nothing seperates us from our Father ever. Ever the same.
    There is only one Paradise and that is where God is. What would Paradise be like without God?
    2CO 12:1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

    Paradise is where you find God and Hell is not where you find Him.

    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

    That is a prophecy about Jesus not David. David is dust.

    johnp.
     
    #94 johnp., Jan 24, 2005
  15. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi JohnP;
    Regardless of what hell means in the old testament if you are there you're not saved. David was an Old Testament prophet of God and yet wasn't saved. He had hope that God wouldn't leave his soul in Hell. The soul doesn't go to the grave. I just know you're going to tewll me that the soul is the body. You sure you're not a JW because this is what JW's teach and those who follow Armstrong and his wonderous church of God.
    So typical of Calvinist they just love to change the meanings of words to make the Word fit there false doctrines. :D
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #95 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 24, 2005
  16. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    ILUVLIGHT.

    Regardless of what hell means in the old testament if you are there you're not saved.
    No one is in Hell at this time. It's stands empty. Hell is the final destination of the judged on Judgement Day and no one enters until then.
    All men end up in the grave, not all maybe, most men are destined for the grave. In Ye Olde English that would read 'ye all be bound for hell me dears'. Then nobody is saved, in Ye Olde English, then are they?

    The soul doesn't go to the grave. I just know you're going to tewll me that the soul is the body.

    You are very knowledgable! Not only do you tell me what I'm going to say but then launch into me about being a Jw based on your opinion of what you know I'm going to say! Amazing!

    You sure you're not a JW because this is what JW's teach and those who follow Armstrong and his wonderous church of God.

    I am quite sure I was not going to say what you say I was going to say but now we will never know will we?

    So typical of Calvinist they just love to change the meanings of words to make the Word fit there false doctrines.

    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Psa 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

    As I said, that is a prophecy about Jesus not David. David is dust.

    23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

    " `I saw the Lord always before me.
    Because he is at my right hand,
    I will not be shaken.

    AC 2:26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
    my body also will live in hope,

    AC 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the grave,
    nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

    AC 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will fill me with joy in your presence.'

    It is a prophecy of Jesus.

    johnp.
     
    #96 johnp., Jan 24, 2005
  17. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi JohnP;
    Only part of the first verse is prophecy. David was not nor could he be Christ. He doesn't say the soul of the holy one but says my soul .

    How do you get prophecy from that. Are you claiming Christ and David was one and the same?.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #97 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 24, 2005
  18. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    He was speaking as Christ would say it.

    Verse 25 David said about him:...

    johnp.
     
    #98 johnp., Jan 24, 2005
  19. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi JohnP;
    Not so John Boy;
    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Why would he go from talking as if He was Christ then switch to speaking about chris as if he wasn't as "the Holy One"?
    Big difference between the word "My" and "HolyOne" Sort of blows your theory right out of the water. Eh!
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #99 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 24, 2005
  20. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whadya mean 'Eh'?

    Why would he go from talking as if He was Christ then switch to speaking about chris as if he wasn't as "the Holy One"?
    Big difference between the word "My" and "HolyOne" Sort of blows your theory right out of the water. Eh!

    One of those blows must have dazed me. PS 16:10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
    I am just a lowly working class bloke, someone else may be able to explain the lingo to you.
    There is submission in that 'your' and a recognition. Your Holy One? David was righteous was he? I thought you said they were not regenerated BC? :cool:

    johnp.
     
    #100 johnp., Jan 24, 2005
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 5 of 6
Loading...