Were the disciples sinless?

[Pastor_Bob]

It has been stated by some that a Christian is unable to commit sin. Did Jesus expect His disciples to become sinless? If so, why did He teach them to pray, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." Luke 11:4

In this model prayer, Jesus teaches His disciples to pray for the forgiveness of their sins every time they pray. What would be the need for such praying if they were sinless?

 

[donnA]

No.
Paul even told about his sin, the things he wanted to be able to do he didn't, and the things he didn't want to do he did.
the bible gives instructions to christians on when they sin, and says to christians, if you claim you have no sin you are a liar. 91Jn being written to christians, not to unbelievers).
some people apparently, as I have learned here on the BB, like to think of themselves as perfect without flaw or sin, or wrong doing(or thought), yet we know this describes only Jesus. They like to lord their flawlessness over everyone else, makes them feel better I guess to think of themselves as sin free. Which of course as we see in scripture is calling God a liar.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: It has been stated by some that a Christian is unable to commit sin. Did Jesus expect His disciples to become sinless? If so, why did He teach them to pray, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." Luke 11:4

In this model prayer, Jesus teaches His disciples to pray for the forgiveness of their sins every time they pray. What would be the need for such praying if they were sinless?

HP: First, it is Scripture states that a believer ‘cannot’ sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So, the question is what does the author mean by ‘cannot sin?’ I maintain that it is simply a statement in common parlance, describing a believer as one with a changed heart towards sin, changed to such a degree that sin is NOT impossible to commit by any means, but rather with a heart that is set on willing obedience, set on obeying God and His commandments.

I could say of myself, I cannot go or do the things I used to. What I am saying is that I have became, by the help afforded me by the Holy Spirit, unwilling to do or go to the places I used to attend as a non-believer. How does that resonate with your ideas of a believer whose heart is set on God and righteousness? Should not every believer either say or honestly striving to say with the apostle, in the way that I for one believe he said it, that they ‘cannot’ sin?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: No.
Paul even told about his sin, the things he wanted to be able to do he didn't, and the things he didn't want to do he did.
the bible gives instructions to christians on when they sin, and says to christians, if you claim you have no sin you are a liar. 91Jn being written to christians, not to unbelievers).

HP: That is about as lame of a description of the Apostle Paul’s life as a believer that I could imagine. IF the verse you are referring to is an honest depiction of the Apostles life, he was the most confused person in the entire Word of God. “Being made ‘free from sin’ was the watchword and testimony of his life and walk as a believer.

Clearly the verse you are referring to cannot be, by any stretch of the imagination, a depiction of his normal walk as a believer in Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

It has been stated by some that a Christian is unable to commit sin. Did Jesus expect His disciples to become sinless? If so, why did He teach them to pray, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." Luke 11:4

In this model prayer, Jesus teaches His disciples to pray for the forgiveness of their sins every time they pray. What would be the need for such praying if they were sinless?

I do not know anyone who stated a Christian cannot sin, except the inward part that is indwelt with the Holy Ghost. The part of a man, that will enter into that rest with Jesus, when the natural death comes, for there will be no sin in Heaven for sure.

Did the Deciples have the indwelling of Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, or do you know Pastor?

Was it Jesus who stated this:

1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Wonder why Jesus would say such as the following?

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

These scripture means just as much as any you might quote. We been through this from beginning to the end, over and over and you were there some, so why another thread to cover the same old material over and over again?? Also to mistate the facts in the OP. No one and I do mean no one has said a Christian cannot sin. I don't think you will find a Christian in the act of Adultery. Did you ever read where any of the Apostles were committing adultery or murder??

If you want to say that Christian sin, but not unto death, then I for one will agree with you. If you want to say that we as Christians commit adultery, then I for one will disagree with you. To commit adultery, you not only sin against God, but you sin against your own body and I doubt very seriously that you just fall into it, I suspect you do it willfully.

Instead of telling me how bad Christians are, how about telling me some of the good things they do, as living a Christian life, such as being Christlike, or the steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord. You are a Pastor and moderator, this is your chance to tell people to live for the Lord, not against Him.

1Jo 3:10¶In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Why do Christians, especially Pastors talk about how much you can get away with being a Christian, in other words, how close you can live to the devil. Why not talk about how Christlike you can and should be, and how close you can live to the Lord, so that He will rejoice over you, instead of always wondering what you will do next??

I am continuely amazed at how Christians and Pastors, teach everyday, almost how much sin a Christian can commit. It seems they read the scripture to see how much they can get away with.

Does anyone honestly believe that God wants you or I to teach people, especially Christians, how much sin that is allowed for them to commit. I do not believe that is the message of God at all and I was not taught that.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: In this model prayer, Jesus teaches His disciples to pray for the forgiveness of their sins every time they pray. What would be the need for such praying if they were sinless?

HP: Although Brother Bob and I certainly do not agree in every detail, yet I appreciate his points and his allegiance to obedience to God’s Word. He has got me to thinking yet once again in his last post.

What good does it do to receive forgiveness for sin, over and over if the heart towards that sin is not changed? Is God only willing and able to pass the wand of forgiveness over the heads of a sinful and rebellious people, but unable to purify their hearts by faith to the point they actually enter into a changed life of obedience to His commands? Are we to imagine that love towards God consists only of asking for forgiveness while we go right on in our rebellion?

What if one entered into a marriage commitment, but secretly was in multiple adulterous relationships? What if every time they continued in their adulterous affairs they simply asked for forgiveness for their sin, but continued right on committing adultery? Could it be said of them that they loved their spouse?? That is what we are up against on this board in this and many other threads.

What does Scripture say about love towards God? Who is it that can set forth the claim that they love God? Certainly not one daily in commission of known commandments of God. 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

We had an excellent sermon today that spoke of two specific things God demands out of those that claim to be believers: Commitment and Faithfulness. May God help me with both of those areas, to the point that it can be said of me ‘in this present world’ by God, even as God said of others, “There is a man that walks perfect before ME!” That is my hope, honest prayer, and goal. Perfect before God in light of my understanding, light and abilities. I am certain I have miles to go, but shouldn’t that be the hope and desire of every believer??

 

[Joe]

It has been stated by some that a Christian is unable to commit sin. Did Jesus expect His disciples to become sinless? If so, why did He teach them to pray, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." Luke 11:4

In this model prayer, Jesus teaches His disciples to pray for the forgiveness of their sins every time they pray. What would be the need for such praying if they were sinless?

They weren't sinless (as you know)

1. Judas betrayed Jesus

2. Peter denied Jesus, then the cock crowed three times John 18:27


Even Jesus' own mother appeared to have sinned imho when she bugged Jesus to do something about the wine running out at the wedding in Cana. John 2:4

Regeneration is ongoing......

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: They weren't sinless (as you know)

1. Judas betrayed Jesus

2. Peter denied Jesus, then the cock crowed three times John 18:27


Even Jesus' own mother appeared to have sinned imho when she bugged Jesus to do something about the wine running out at the wedding in Cana. John 2:4

Regeneration is ongoing......

HP: Why would we try and compare how they acted or the measure in which they came to the full stature possible of a believer in this world with the testimony of one that betrayed Christ and another that sinned, but in repentance wept over his sin? Because David committed adultery, does that condone in any way our actions if we would do the same? Does it mean that because David did that nothing more can be expected of us today in light of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit? Are we to compare or excuse our sins today on the basis of those that lived and sinned prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out? Every example you gave was prior to Pentecost, were they not? Should not far more be afforded us today to defeat sin that what was available to those prior to the Holy Spirit’s advent?

“Those that compare themselves to themselves or among themselves, are not wise.”

 

[Joe]

HP: Why would we try and compare how they acted or the measure in which they came to the full stature possible of a believer in this world with the testimony of one that betrayed Christ and another that sinned, but in repentance wept over his sin?

I don't know why, are you bored?

Because David committed adultery, does that condone in any way our actions if we would do the same?

Back to being serious the answer is no. It is a great educational model for us though. Many might give up thinking if they comitted this sin, then they have lost salvation so what do they have to loose by continuing to do it over and over. Just MHO.

Does it mean that because David did that nothing more can be expected of us today in light of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion, there is MORE explected of us that what was expected of David because we have God's instruction book. Any doubts about anything, we can look it up or start a thread here and expect to receive a pretty accurate answer.

Are we to compare or excuse our sins today on the basis of those that lived and sinned prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out?

No but the Lord views are sin differently after conversion. He allows us to remain saved despite our sins, but that is not an insurance policy to go hog wild.

Every example you gave was prior to Pentecost, were they not? Should not far more be afforded us today to defeat sin that what was available to those prior to the Holy Spirit’s advent?

Yes, like I just said before I got to this porton of your post, more is expected of us today than prior to pentecost.

“Those that compare themselves to themselves or among themselves, are not wise.”

Ok, nice thought.

Imho, here's how it goes....

1. No one can come to God unless the Father draws him John 6:44

2. Using our free-will, we respond to his calling (or not) if he allows our free will to do so.

3. We willfully choose to respond, then we are now a part of his family.

4. We have an obligation to remain walking in the spirit. (I'll add he doesn't force us to do this) Gal 5:16-25

5. As Ecc 7:20 states " Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins" that is not advocating sin, just acknowledging it as I did in my reply to Pastor Bob

6. We sin because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. And it's our nature to transgress Matt 26:41

7. As 2 John 1:8-9 states, we must look to ourselves that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

8. If we endure, we will inherit eternal life. Rev 3:5 - He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


Regeneration is a continual process

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: No but the Lord views are sin differently after conversion. He allows us to remain saved despite our sins, but that is not an insurance policy to go hog wild.

HP: How wild does a hog have to get to be denoted as being 'hog wild? '

Joe: 2. Using our free-will, we respond to his calling (or not) if he allows our free will to do so.

HP: Doesn't that sound a bit strange even to you? Does not the second part of your sentence negate the first?

 

[Joe]

How wild does a hog have to get to be denoted as being 'hog wild?

If we could answer that precisely, then we would know who will be saved Only God knows this.
Jesus says in Matt 19:16-19 that we are to avoid comitting murder, adultery, theiving, bear false witness AND we must honor our father and mothern & love others as we love ourselves.

Romans 2 warns us about judging our brother and sisters. The level we judge another is the same level in which will be measured right back to us. So if we are judging upon conditions not listed above (non-salvation issues) then we are sinning.
Example judging another upon dress attire, weight (gluttony) dress length, diet, hair, basically judging motives for why we do what we do which do not pertain to salvation issues is sin. It's going hog wild with our imaginations.

Doesn't that sound a bit strange even to you? Does not the second part of your sentence negate the first?

No. We are given multiple chances to respond to the holy spirit's calling, thus we can resist many times before responding to his calling.

The disciples didn't receive the holy spirit immediately, they didn't even know about him until Paul inquired then explained it to them. Then he laid hands upon the disciples and they were indweled with the spirit -Acts 19:2-6

The disciples chose to believe, then the spirit was granted to them

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: if he allows our free will to do so.

HP: If God is in control of our free will, pertaining to moral issues of which we are to be blamed or praised, how is our will free?

 

[Joe]

If he allows our free will to do so

If God is in control of our free will, pertaining to moral issues of which we are to be blamed or praised, how is our will free?

Part of our free will is the choice to allow God's will to influence and guide our lives.

 

[donnA]

HP: That is about as lame of a description of the Apostle Paul’s life as a believer that I could imagine. IF the verse you are referring to is an honest depiction of the Apostles life, he was the most confused person in the entire Word of God. “Being made ‘free from sin’ was the watchword and testimony of his life and walk as a believer.

Clearly the verse you are referring to cannot be, by any stretch of the imagination, a depiction of his normal walk as a believer in Christ.

Lame or not, it's in the bible.
Normal or not, it is about Paul, and the fact he did sin, he was not perfect like Jesus, he knew he wasn't God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joe: Part of our free will is the choice to allow God's will to influence and guide our lives.

HP: Amen. I would agree with that statement.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Donna: he was not perfect like Jesus, he knew he wasn't God.

HP: God is Infinite in His perfection. God requires what might be denoted as finite or relative perfection from us, i.e., perfection in light of our understanding, strength, abilities, etc. You don’t have to be God to be perfect in God’s eyes; case in point Job.

God called Job perfect and Paul referred once to himself and some others as being perfect. Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

We speak of perfect flowers, perfect hair, perfect love between spouses, perfect cars, and yes, even at times perfect children, and the list goes on and on. Why do we find such a hard time understanding the meaning of moral perfection, or act as if though it is an impossibility to reach? Scripture certainly never affirms that it is impossible to be as perfect as God says He requires us to be. “Be ye therefore perfect.”

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I maintain that it is simply a statement in common parlance, describing a believer as one with a changed heart towards sin, changed to such a degree that sin is NOT impossible to commit by any means, but rather with a heart that is set on willing obedience, set on obeying God and His commandments.

I find no disagreement with this exegesis. With your permission, I would like to use it myself in the future.

Should not every believer either say or honestly striving to say with the apostle, in the way that I for one believe he said it, that they ‘cannot’ sin?

I have said many times that a Christian cannot "live" in sin and "get away with it." The principle of chastisement comes into play when a Christian does sin. A child of God cannot make a practice of sin without experiencing the chastisement of the Father.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (KJV)

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I do not know anyone who stated a Christian cannot sin, except the inward part that is indwelt with the Holy Ghost. The part of a man, that will enter into that rest with Jesus, when the natural death comes, for there will be no sin in Heaven for sure.

I agree (Eph. 4:24). I apologize if I hastily mis-characterized your position.

Did the Deciples have the indwelling of Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, or do you know Pastor?

The Holy Spirit had not yet been given. The disciples had Jesus present in bodily form only at the time they asked Him to "teach us to pray."

We been through this from beginning to the end, over and over and you were there some, so why another thread to cover the same old material over and over again??

I simply offered my position from a different angle. This passage would refute any assertion of "sinless perfection."

I don't think you will find a Christian in the act of Adultery. Did you ever read where any of the Apostles were committing adultery or murder??

Sadly, I have known Christians who have committed adultery. It is possible for a Christian to fail to take the "way of escape" when confronted with a temptation. David, a man after God's own heart, committed both adultery and murder.

Instead of telling me how bad Christians are,

I am telling you how "human" Christians are. God knows our frame (Ps. 103:14). God knows that we will sin, and when we do, He has provided us an "advocate with the Father" (I John 2:1).

...how about telling me some of the good things they do, as living a Christian life, such as being Christlike, or the steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord. You are a Pastor and moderator, this is your chance to tell people to live for the Lord, not against Him.

This goes without saying. Praise the Lord for those who are living sanctified lives are serving the Lord with their whole heart. These very Christians do not need to be made to feel that if they stumble and fall that they either are removed from the family of God or have never been adopted in the first place.

Why do Christians, especially Pastors talk about how much you can get away with being a Christian, in other words, how close you can live to the devil.

I cannot answer that. I certainly do not espouse this philosophy.

Does anyone honestly believe that God wants you or I to teach people, especially Christians, how much sin that is allowed for them to commit. I do not believe that is the message of God at all and I was not taught that.

No one has said or even implied this. You are reading far more into this than is there.

 

[DHK]

I do not know anyone who stated a Christian cannot sin, except the inward part that is indwelt with the Holy Ghost.
BBob,

Which part of the man is the inward man/
The cerebrum? cerebellum? heart? nerves?
What is defined as the "inward part"? Most of my organs are on the inside.
Paul said that we should have "bowels of mercies." Is that part of my inward man.
Peter said "gird up the loins of your mind". Is that part of the inward man.

Just what specifically is this inward man that you speak of?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

What good does it do to receive forgiveness for sin, over and over if the heart towards that sin is not changed?

I do not believe that forgiveness can be extended where true repentance is absent. The one who continues in sin is treading under foot the grace of God. I believe that Paul deals with this specific issue in Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" We cannot plan to sin today with the intention of asking for forgiveness tomorrow. That is what the Bible calls "presumptuous sins" (Ps. 19:13).