Were the disciples sinless?

[LeBuick]

I always thought sin was a product of the law...

Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now how about those of us who are not under a schoolmaster?

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ro 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Aren't we justified by faith? That's the way I read scripture.

So yes we all did sin, if you say you haven't sinned you had no need of a Saviour. It was the knowledge of that sin, the law that exposed it, our unrighteousness that humbled us, the schoolmaster, yes it brought us to the saving knowledge of Christ who then justified us by faith. How can one transgress a law when there is no law? Before you misunderstand that statement;

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is the Will of the Father...

Ro 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[LeBuick]

I do not believe that forgiveness can be extended where true repentance is absent. The one who continues in sin is treading under foot the grace of God. I believe that Paul deals with this specific issue in Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" We cannot plan to sin today with the intention of asking for forgiveness tomorrow. That is what the Bible calls "presumptuous sins" (Ps. 19:13).

Very, very well said.... :thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

It has been stated by some that a Christian is unable to commit sin. Did Jesus expect His disciples to become sinless? If so, why did He teach them to pray, "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." Luke 11:4

In this model prayer, Jesus teaches His disciples to pray for the forgiveness of their sins every time they pray. What would be the need for such praying if they were sinless?

Had there been a sacrifice for our sin's when he taught this prayer? Were the disciples Jews and still under the law?

 

[Brother Bob]

Which part of the man is the inward man/
The cerebrum? cerebellum? heart? nerves?
What is defined as the "inward part"? Most of my organs are on the inside.
Paul said that we should have "bowels of mercies." Is that part of my inward man.
Peter said "gird up the loins of your mind". Is that part of the inward man.

Just what specifically is this inward man that you speak of?

Romans 7:
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

2Cr 4:16 ¶ For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

Study the scripture, for in them you think you have eternal life. It will stay with you longer, for I have told you several times to no avail. You have already stated that the inward part of you is going to heaven when you die naturally without sin. Try that on for size as the the inward man.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Romans 7:
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

2Cr 4:16 ¶ For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.

Study the scripture, for in them you think you have eternal life. It will stay with you longer, for I have told you several times to no avail. You have already stated that the inward part of you is going to heaven when you die naturally without sin. Try that on for size as the the inward man.

BBob,

You are too vague Bob. It is not good enough.
My Bible says that the Spirit is the inward man.
My Bible says that the Soul is the inward man.
My Bible says that the mind is the inward man.
My Bible says that the heart is the inward man.
My Bible refers to "bowels of mercies," which also seem to be inward.

You are too vague in your answer. You can't just quote Scripture and get away with it. You must define your terms.

 

[Brother Bob]

You are too vague Bob. It is not good enough.
My Bible says that the Spirit is the inward man.
My Bible says that the Soul is the inward man.
My Bible says that the mind is the inward man.
My Bible says that the heart is the inward man.
My Bible refers to "bowels of mercies," which also seem to be inward.

You are too vague in your answer. You can't just quote Scripture and get away with it. You must define your terms.

Spiritual.................

My Bible says that the Spirit is the inward man.
My Bible says that the Soul is the inward man.
My Bible says that the mind is the inward man.
My Bible says that the heart is the inward man.
My Bible refers to "bowels of mercies," which also seem to be inward.

remove the heart of stone and give a heart of flesh, is not the natural heart that can be transplanted.

We have a spiritual mind, which is not the carnal mind, or else we could never worship God.

He that hath an ear, let him hear. Which is not the natural ear. Understand????

annoint your eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. It not the natural eyes..........

Buy of me Gold that been tried in fire, that thou mayest be rich, not natural Gold.

Rainment, that thou mayest be clothed. Not natural clothes. Understand?????

Do you have a "heart" of love, which is not your natural heart that pumps blood????

Bbob,

 

[DHK]

Spiritual.................


My Bible says that the Soul is the inward man.

Bbob,

The soul that sinneth it shall die, Bob.
Your inward man sins, Bob.
You just admitted it.

 

[Brother Bob]

The soul that sinneth it shall die, Bob.
Your inward man sins, Bob.
You just admitted it.

Yes, it did and I died. Thanks be to the good Lord, I was "born again" and made alive in Christ Jesus, raised to walk a newness of life, never ever to die no more inwardly.

Do you have on a robe of righteous DHK???

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Yes, it did and I died. Thanks be to the good Lord, I was "born again" and made alive in Christ Jesus, raised to walk a newness of life, never ever to die no more inwardly.

Do you have on a robe of righteous DHK???

BBob,

The soul never dies. The soul as used in Ezekiel refers to the whole person. It means we all face death, physically as a person. Jesus says "out of the heart comes evil: adultery, fornication, murders, etc.
That includes your soul, heart, mind, spirit. They are inseparable. You sin, and you do it by choice. Born again or not, you sin and you do it by choice. Jesus declared the same.

 

[Brother Bob]

The soul never dies. The soul as used in Ezekiel refers to the whole person. It means we all face death, physically as a person. Jesus says "out of the heart comes evil: adultery, fornication, murders, etc.
That includes your soul, heart, mind, spirit. They are inseparable. You sin, and you do it by choice. Born again or not, you sin and you do it by choice. Jesus declared the same.

Oh, so we don't die physically because of Adam's sin. I guess the scripture is wrong.

Jesus says "out of the heart comes evil: adultery, fornication, murders, etc.

That is the world, not Christians. Sure would be some Church, if they are made up of that kind of people.
Bbob,

 

[DHK]

Oh, so we don't die physically because of Adam's sin. I guess the scripture is wrong.


That is the world, not Christians. Sure would be some Church, if they are made up of that kind of people.
Bbob,

If that is the world, then why was he speaking to his disciples. It is just as applicable to believers as to anyone else.
It is your murder, adultery, lying etc. that comes from within you.
I know that you "hate" talking about those sins.
But hatred itself is murder, especially when it is directed against your brother.
If you have ever been angry with your brother (like me) you have committed murder. You accused me of murder the other day (I think yesterday) didn't you.
"Why do you hate me?" Why are you murdering me? It is the same thing in Jesus eyes. I am not murdering you. And I do not hate you. You made a false accusation, another one of "The Big Ten." You bore false witness. In essence you lied. One sin after another. According to your theology it is impossible for you to enter into heaven isn't it?

On the other hand, I know that my sins: past, present, and future are covered by the blood of Christ. I don't have to worry about those sins because they are covered by the blood. To answer your question--as I have many times--I am covered with a robe of righteousness. That is why Christ doesn't see my sins. I am not perfect. I sin. And so do you. But those sins do not condemn me to Hell. They don't take away my salvation.
I confess them to Christ, and He is faithful and just to forgive them and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. It has nothing to do with salvation. That was all taken care of at the cross, at the time I trusted Christ. Now, it only has to do with my walk with God.

 

[Brother Bob]

If that is the world, then why was he speaking to his disciples. It is just as applicable to believers as to anyone else.
It is your murder, adultery, lying etc. that comes from within you.
I know that you "hate" talking about those sins.
But hatred itself is murder, especially when it is directed against your brother.
If you have ever been angry with your brother (like me) you have committed murder. You accused me of murder the other day (I think yesterday) didn't you.
"Why do you hate me?" Why are you murdering me? It is the same thing in Jesus eyes. I am not murdering you. And I do not hate you. You made a false accusation, another one of "The Big Ten." You bore false witness. In essence you lied. One sin after another. According to your theology it is impossible for you to enter into heaven isn't it?

On the other hand, I know that my sins: past, present, and future are covered by the blood of Christ. I don't have to worry about those sins because they are covered by the blood. To answer your question--as I have many times--I am covered with a robe of righteousness. That is why Christ doesn't see my sins. I am not perfect. I sin. And so do you. But those sins do not condemn me to Hell. They don't take away my salvation.
I confess them to Christ, and He is faithful and just to forgive them and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. It has nothing to do with salvation. That was all taken care of at the cross, at the time I trusted Christ. Now, it only has to do with my walk with God.

Mat 15:12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?


He was not saying His deciples were evil, He was telling them if they are evil, that is where it comes from, which would make you a wordly person, Christian don't do those things and go to Heaven.

What does your robe cover? It certainly is not the flesh, so what does it cover, if anything.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Mat 15:12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?


He was not saying His deciples were evil, He was telling them if they are evil, that is where it comes from, which would make you a wordly person, Christian don't do those things and go to Heaven.

BBob,

Is it your habit to leave things out of context. Perhaps we should look at this as a sin because it is deceitful and misrepresents the Scripture. When we look at 1John 3:8,9 where the Word of God declares: Whosoever is born of God cannot sin we find out what this verse really means by your own example.
BBob continually or habitually takes Scripture out of context and makes it mean what it does not sin.
Therefore: BBob (whosoever is born of God) does not habitually commit sin.
But BBob does habitually commit sin. He habitually misrepresents the Scripture.
One might say that if BBob does not repent of this then may BBob, according to Scripture, is not saved, for he that is saved does not habitually live in sin.

That is an example Bob. I am not suggesting you are unsaved. I am showing you the meaning of the verse. It is not speaking of a one time sin. It is speaking of a habitual lifestyle.

Now let's get back to the context:

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
That was verse 15.
Then Jesus spends from verse 16 to 20 explaining the parable to the disciples only. He was speaking to the disciples. The parables were to hide the true meaning from the Pharisees and to open the understanding of the Word to the disciples. He was teaching the disciples. Out of the heart, the inward man, comes, thefts, lies, fornication, adulteries, murders, and all sorts of evil things. The heart is very evil. It sins. It sins every day whether one be saved or unsaved.

 

[Brother Bob]

Is it your habit to leave things out of context. Perhaps we should look at this as a sin because it is deceitful and misrepresents the Scripture. When we look at 1John 3:8,9 where the Word of God declares: Whosoever is born of God cannot sin we find out what this verse really means by your own example.
BBob continually or habitually takes Scripture out of context and makes it mean what it does not sin.
Therefore: BBob (whosoever is born of God) does not habitually commit sin.
But BBob does habitually commit sin. He habitually misrepresents the Scripture.
One might say that if BBob does not repent of this then may BBob, according to Scripture, is not saved, for he that is saved does not habitually live in sin.
He was explaining the parable to his deciples concerning the Pharasees, that is the context. You are the one who changes the context.

You do seem to be suggesting that I am unsaved. That is your context to what you are saying, then try and cover you backside by saying you are not calling me unsaved, when in fact, that is the context of what you are saying.
You do it over and over and over. You call me names, a liar, a habitual sinner, of which you say is unsaved. You do what you as a moderator should not be doing.
I have learned you DHK;, you never admit wrong and you call your opponent names. When you make a bad mistake, you never mention it again, knowing you messed up bad. Your definition of a Christian, is the definition of a unsaved person. If you are committing the sins, you say a Christian can commit, I feel for you.

BBob,

That is an example Bob. I am not suggesting you are unsaved. I am showing you the meaning of the verse. It is not speaking of a one time sin. It is speaking of a habitual lifestyle.

Now let's get back to the context:

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
That was verse 15.

Mat 15:
8: This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: (The multitude is the Pharasees)
11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12: Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13: But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14: Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15: Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.


You wouldn't know the context if it hit you right in the face.


Then Jesus spends from verse 16 to 20 explaining the parable to the disciples only. He was speaking to the disciples. The parables were to hide the true meaning from the Pharisees and to open the understanding of the Word to the disciples. He was teaching the disciples. Out of the heart, the inward man, comes, thefts, lies, fornication, adulteries, murders, and all sorts of evil things. The heart is very evil. It sins. It sins every day whether one be saved or unsaved.

Speak for yourself.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
I maintain that it is simply a statement in common parlance, describing a believer as one with a changed heart towards sin, changed to such a degree that sin is NOT impossible to commit by any means, but rather with a heart that is set on willing obedience, set on obeying God and His commandments.

Pastor Bob: I find no disagreement with this exegesis. With your permission, I would like to use it myself in the future.

HP: By all means, use anything I have said. Truth is not novel with me, nor is it beat out on my own anvil. I have so many godly men and women that have been and are now my councilors and mentors. I am truly blessed to have the heritage I have. Freely we have received of the truth, freely we give it.


Quote:
HP: Should not every believer either say or honestly striving to say with the apostle, in the way that I for one believe he said it, that they ‘cannot’ sin?

Pastor Bob: I have said many times that a Christian cannot "live" in sin and "get away with it." The principle of chastisement comes into play when a Christian does sin. A child of God cannot make a practice of sin without experiencing the chastisement of the Father.

HP: Amen. That is Scriptural truth.:thumbs: Where we 'might' find disagreement is in the outcome of that chastisement. I for one believe that God will try everything He can wisely do to draw such a wayward son or daughter back into the fold via repentance, but I have to maintain that His Spirit will not always strive with man and the possibility does exist that one can refuse to endure chastening, refuse to repent and turn back to God in faith and in the end be lost. Certainly I cannot say that I know one to which that has been the case for the books have not been open to us and we have no way, other than by faith, to ascertain the actual outcome of the judgment to come. With all the many clear scriptural admonitions and warnings, I feel it imperative to allow for the possibility to exist within the scope of the theology I hold to.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: I do not believe that forgiveness can be extended where true repentance is absent. The one who continues in sin is treading under foot the grace of God. I believe that Paul deals with this specific issue in Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" We cannot plan to sin today with the intention of asking for forgiveness tomorrow. That is what the Bible calls "presumptuous sins" (Ps. 19:13).

HP: Again, I believe you have stated the truth in a clear and accurate way. I can only say yea and amen. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Speak for yourself.

BBob,

The Bible speaks for itself Bob, but you ignore it.
Perhaps you should read it again.
I will say again:

Then Jesus spends from verse 16 to 20 explaining the parable to the disciples only. He was speaking to the disciples. The parables were to hide the true meaning from the Pharisees and to open the understanding of the Word to the disciples. He was teaching the disciples. Out of the heart, the inward man, comes, thefts, lies, fornication, adulteries, murders, and all sorts of evil things. The heart is very evil. It sins. It sins every day whether one be saved or unsaved.

 

[Brother Bob]

The Bible speaks for itself Bob, but you ignore it.
Perhaps you should read it again.
I will say again:

Then Jesus spends from verse 16 to 20 explaining the parable to the disciples only. He was speaking to the disciples. The parables were to hide the true meaning from the Pharisees and to open the understanding of the Word to the disciples. He was teaching the disciples. Out of the heart, the inward man, comes, thefts, lies, fornication, adulteries, murders, and all sorts of evil things. The heart is very evil. It sins. It sins every day whether one be saved or unsaved.

What I believe makes sense and lines up with scripture, what you believe lines up with DHK theology. IMO

Just like you saying "I murdered you", how senseless can one person be, I murdered no one. Sure glad you don't decide my fate, for you have posted enough things you say I am guilty of, to send me to the depths of hell. I sure am glad that God is my judge and I have a home in Heaven, because I am a believer and have worked for the Lord for many years. My works are something I am never ashame of. I will glady stand before God to receive my just reward.

God will never ask me "why did you teach others they are free to commit any sin known to man". Never.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

What I believe makes sense and lines up with scripture, what you believe lines up with DHK theology. IMO

Just like you saying "I murdered you", how senseless can one person be, I murdered no one. Sure glad you don't decide my fate, for you have posted enough things you say I am guilty of, to send me to the depths of hell. I sure am glad that God is my judge and I have a home in Heaven, because I am a believer and have worked for the Lord for many years. My works are something I am never ashame of. I will glady stand before God to receive my just reward.

Let's see if what you said lines up with Scripture.
Did you commit the sin of murder or not, or what I said: "accuse me of committing the sin of murder," that is what I actually said.
What did you say?
I quote:

Why do you not at least agree with me when I get it right??? You hate me that much??

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1275521&postcount=207

It is a false statement Bob. You have falsely accused me of murder. I murdered no one.

"You hate me that much." What does that statement mean? What does Scripture say?
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
--Whoso hateth his brother is a murderer. This is what you accused me of--being a murderer. The evidence is all there, and documented.

Thou shalt not bear false witness is one of the Ten Commandments.
You have borne false witness against me.
That is just as serious as murder in God's sight.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
--The same is true if the verse said: Do not bear false witness, for it also is one of the Ten Commandments. You have become a transgressor of the law.
Yes, God is your judge, and yet you say you have nothing to be ashamed of.
You have never apologized for such a statement, this horrible accusation, and yet you will face God in judgment and say you have nothing to be ashamed of? Is this really true??

God will never ask me "why did you teach others they are free to commit any sin known to man". Never.BBob,

NO, he won't. You will give account of yourself to God, not account of others. However, you are an example to others. The way you influence others you will give an account of. If you have influenced others for wrong, even on this board, you will give an account of that before God as well.

 

[Brother Bob]

Let's see if what you said lines up with Scripture.
Did you commit the sin of murder or not, or what I said: "accuse me of committing the sin of murder," that is what I actually said.
What did you say?
I quote:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1275521&postcount=207

It is a false statement Bob. You have falsely accused me of murder. I murdered no one.

"You hate me that much." What does that statement mean? What does Scripture say?
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
--Whoso hateth his brother is a murderer. This is what you accused me of--being a murderer. The evidence is all there, and documented.

Thou shalt not bear false witness is one of the Ten Commandments.
You have borne false witness against me.
That is just as serious as murder in God's sight.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
--The same is true if the verse said: Do not bear false witness, for it also is one of the Ten Commandments. You have become a transgressor of the law.
Yes, God is your judge, and yet you say you have nothing to be ashamed of.
You have never apologized for such a statement, this horrible accusation, and yet you will face God in judgment and say you have nothing to be ashamed of? Is this really true??

NO, he won't. You will give account of yourself to God, not account of others. However, you are an example to others. The way you influence others you will give an account of. If you have influenced others for wrong, even on this board, you will give an account of that before God as well.

That is a complete false statement. I ask you a question and you say no. So, to me thats the end of it. If you want to continue to make false accusations as a moderator, continue. I do not think it reflects well on you. IMO

I am willing to die on what I say or do. You can't even debate without making false accusations, for your theology just does not hold up to questioning. IMO

BBob,