Were the original Baptist missionaries Calvinist?

[Jim1999]

On Adoniram Judson, he was very strong on the absolute sovereignty of God, and sovereign grace....terms he used in all his books and interviews.

You might be able to find a copy of a large book by Dr. Lawrence M. Vance, titled The Other Side of Calvinism. He talks about early missionaries and their theological viewpoints. Then remember what I wrote earlier about those days. We actually avoided the title calvinist because of Calvin's view of the church,,we preferred "sovereign grace".

To my mind, there is little question that Judson was one of "those" calvinists; a firm believer in absolute sovereignty.

Cheers, and happy searching. Having graduated from Toronto Bible College, a strong non-denominational school and heavy into missions, I have always been mission minded. This is why I have provided $500.oo a month in personal funds to a missionary in Africa...to be used as they please. Generally it was used on the field for the people they worked with.

Oh, and my sister's sister-in-law retired from what was the China Inland Mission. She was Anglican, but reformed in theology.

Jim

 

[John of Japan]

On Adoniram Judson, he was very strong on the absolute sovereignty of God, and sovereign grace....terms he used in all his books and interviews.

You might be able to find a copy of a large book by Dr. Lawrence M. Vance, titled The Other Side of Calvinism. He talks about early missionaries and their theological viewpoints. Then remember what I wrote earlier about those days. We actually avoided the title calvinist because of Calvin's view of the church,,we preferred "sovereign grace".

To my mind, there is little question that Judson was one of "those" calvinists; a firm believer in absolute sovereignty.

Cheers, and happy searching. Having graduated from Toronto Bible College, a strong non-denominational school and heavy into missions, I have always been mission minded. This is why I have provided $500.oo a month in personal funds to a missionary in Africa...to be used as they please. Generally it was used on the field for the people they worked with.

Oh, and my sister's sister-in-law retired from what was the China Inland Mission. She was Anglican, but reformed in theology.

Jim

Thanks for the good input, Jim. I have to run to the church, or I'd talk more. Guess I should have a sermon for tomorrow! :saint:

My parents were candidates to go to Tibet under the CIM in the '40s, but couldn't go.

 

[John of Japan]

I've been mystified by the opinion that Hudson Taylor was a Calvinist. I have four biographies of him, and remember nothing Calvinistic from any of them. The previous quotes from Hudson Taylor were from when he was older. I think the second one especially shows that he was no Calvinist.

In order to say Taylor was a Calvinist, I think someone looked at the Calvinistic Methodist link (which I am unable to prove) and made an unwarranted assumption.

Even when Hudson was young, he held to the belief that one could "fall from grace" and lose one's salvation, contra the perseverance of the saints. He wrote, "I did not enjoy communion with God as heretofore, and felt something was wrong, so wrong that i feared I might fall away from grace and be finally lost" (Hudson Taylor, vol. 1, by Dr. & Mrs. Howard Taylor, p. 102).

Not only that, Taylor's parents withdrew from where they were members, and joined the nascent "Free Methodist" movement, taking Hudson with them. This was an Arminian group. But Taylor went even further, left that group and linked up with the Plymouth Brethren (ibid, p. 111). Hudson Taylor a Calvinist? No evidence so far.

 

[John of Japan]

On Adoniram Judson, he was very strong on the absolute sovereignty of God, and sovereign grace....terms he used in all his books and interviews.

You might be able to find a copy of a large book by Dr. Lawrence M. Vance, titled The Other Side of Calvinism. He talks about early missionaries and their theological viewpoints. Then remember what I wrote earlier about those days. We actually avoided the title calvinist because of Calvin's view of the church,,we preferred "sovereign grace".

Can you give me any quotes directly from Judson, Jim? I don't doubt you, but that's what the thread is about, quotes from the original sources.

I've been reading what I can find directly from Judson, and so far he's the same as I am on the sovereignty of God. Judson led an extremely tragic life, which might be compared to Job in the Bible: outlived his first two wives, lost several children, labored in an extremely difficult field, etc. At one point he went into the woods, dug an empty grave and tried to wish himself into it. At such times we must admit that God is Sovereign, he allowed things to happen to us as He did to Job, and in the midst of all our sorrow He has a wonderful purpose and plan.

Edited in: Jim, the book you mentioned has no quotes from Judson, though it does call him a Calvinist. I was able to do a search of the book on Amazon. It's actually a book opposing Calvinism. Perhaps you meant a different book.

 

[Jim1999]

Sorry, John, I don't have any direct quotes. I just thought that an anti-calvinist's quote would attest to Hudson's calvinism.

Vance is also a KJVonlyist.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[John of Japan]

Sorry, John, I don't have any direct quotes. I just thought that an anti-calvinist's quote would attest to Hudson's calvinism.

Vance is also a KJVonlyist.

Cheers,

Jim

No problem. Actually, I had fun looking up this book on Amazon, because when I did I looked up Robert Picirilli's book also, Grace, Faith, Free Will, which was mentioned by a reviewer. And the top reviewer there was "Yokohama Paul," my son, who got 78 of 79 "helpful" votes. :thumbsup:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Glad this is fellowship cause I can say here that I think it is pretty neat that the two main missionaries being discussed, Jamas Hudson Taylor and Adoniram Judson are the names my second son and his wife gave their first two sons. I don't think AJ or Hudson know whether or not they are Calvinists yet - but I am sure AJ would have an opinion (if he could only express it at 3).

Okay, back to your real discussion

 

[John of Japan]

Glad this is fellowship cause I can say here that I think it is pretty neat that the two main missionaries being discussed, Jamas Hudson Taylor and Adoniram Judson are the names my second son and his wife gave their first two sons. I don't think AJ or Hudson know whether or not they are Calvinists yet - but I am sure AJ would have an opinion (if he could only express it at 3).

Okay, back to your real discussion

A future theologian, maybe? :thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

I am a Calvinist, and have no problem with that statement. Whitefield was a firmly entrenched Calvinist, and often made similar appeals. Even Calvin himself recognized earthly circumstances as an expression of God's will (which is all the quote is doing).

John, I think you are failing to remember that classic Calvinism is compatibilist. Therefore we can think of failure in terms of man's failure, and earthly reasons for it, yet recognize at the same time without contradiction, that failure in those circumstances was ultimately God's will.

Exactly.

The fact of the matter is that most people who oppose Calvinism really do not know what it is. John, respectfully, you prove this by providing that quote from Taylor as an indication that he may not have been a Calvinist.

I do not know a SINGLE Calvinist who would have a problem with that quote. Maybe some of our Primitive brethren, but no one else.

 

[John of Japan]

Exactly.

The fact of the matter is that most people who oppose Calvinism really do not know what it is. John, respectfully, you prove this by providing that quote from Taylor as an indication that he may not have been a Calvinist.

I do not know a SINGLE Calvinist who would have a problem with that quote. Maybe some of our Primitive brethren, but no one else.

Thank you for your input.

 

[John of Japan]

Folks, a major problem with modern missiology is that it almost never examines the theology connection. To put it another way, there has been almost no research about how theology affects missions. Hence this thread.

Assumptions are often made, but proof is seldom supplied, as can be seen on this thread. Hudson Taylor was positively identified as a Calvinist, yet no one could supply original source quotes to that effect. I believe I've supplied sufficient quotes to show he was not. What about Adoniram Judson? No one has supplied quotes, only assumptions. That's not scholarship.

In missiology, I'm currently reading Communicating Christ Cross Culturally by David Hesselgrave. He is an excellent missiologist, but in this book he quotes Eugene Nida positively without ever examining Nida's neo-orthodoxy, which definitely impacted Nida's social theories.

Again, another excellent book is The Legacy of William Carey by Vishal & Ruth Mangalwadi. This book by two Indians examines the huge impact of Carey on Indian society in many areas, but especially in social reform. However, there are only a very few sentences about his theology, and to read the book you would never know he was a Calvinist.

So, any original source quotes from Carey about his doctrine and how it affected his ministry? His relationship with his insane wife?

 

[Luke2427]

Folks, a major problem with modern missiology is that it almost never examines the theology connection. To put it another way, there has been almost no research about how theology affects missions. Hence this thread.

A fine goal.

Assumptions are often made, but proof is seldom supplied, as can be seen on this thread. Hudson Taylor was positively identified as a Calvinist, yet no one could supply original source quotes to that effect. I believe I've supplied sufficient quotes to show he was not. What about Adoniram Judson? No one has supplied quotes, only assumptions. That's not scholarship.

Yes. I am actually not certain that Taylor was a Calvinist. I was only saying that the quote you provided from him has nothing to do with the issue.

Again, another excellent book is The Legacy of William Carey by Vishal & Ruth Mangalwadi. This book by two Indians examines the huge impact of Carey on Indian society in many areas, but especially in social reform. However, there are only a very few sentences about his theology, and to read the book you would never know he was a Calvinist.

So, any original source quotes from Carey about his doctrine and how it affected his ministry? His relationship with his insane wife?

Again, could this be because you really don't understand Calvinism?

If you think that Calvinism quells missionary fervor I'm afraid you do not.

Carey was a Calvinist. I've never heard any reputable historian dispute that.
Carey was not a theological writer- he was a missionary which means his writings on the matter should be expected to be scant- so your challenge might be a bit unreasonable in the context of an online debate site.

But I believe a good quote was provided earlier.

 

[Luke2427]

So, any original source quotes from Carey about his doctrine and how it affected his ministry? His relationship with his insane wife?

I have a book here by Dr. Tom Nettles called, The Baptists: Key People Involved in Forming Baptist Identity.

In it Nettles speaks of a time in young Carey's life shortly after his conversioni when he had no systematic theology. Rev. Thomas Skinner befriended Carey and would later baptize Carey's two sisters. Skinner gave Carey a book by the Rev. Robert Hall called, Help to Zion's Travelers.

Carey's response to that book is as follows:

Mr. Skinner one day made me a present of Mr. Hall's Help to Zion's Travelers in which I found all that arranged and illustrated which I had been so long picking up by scraps [through personal bible study]. I do not remember ever to have read any book with such raptures as I did that. If it was poison as some then have said, it was so sweet to me that I drank it greedily to the bottom of the cup. And I rejoice to say, that those doctrines are the choice of my heart to this day.​

Nettles said, "By this Carey meant that his theology solidified into a systematic and warmly evangelical Calvinism. Hall's book consisted of a pastoral presentation of the Calvinistic theology of the Particular Baptists. As well as providing a clear defense of Calvinism from several objections, the veneratd minister wanted to show the doctrines of God's Sovereignty gave a solid foundation for hope in the mercy of God."

pg 283

 

[John of Japan]

I have a book here by Dr. Tom Nettles called, The Baptists: Key People Involved in Forming Baptist Identity.

In it Nettles speaks of a time in young Carey's life shortly after his conversioni when he had no systematic theology. Rev. Thomas Skinner befriended Carey and would later baptize Carey's two sisters. Skinner gave Carey a book by the Rev. Robert Hall called, Help to Zion's Travelers.

Carey's response to that book is as follows:

Mr. Skinner one day made me a present of Mr. Hall's Help to Zion's Travelers in which I found all that arranged and illustrated which I had been so long picking up by scraps [through personal bible study]. I do not remember ever to have read any book with such raptures as I did that. If it was poison as some then have said, it was so sweet to me that I drank it greedily to the bottom of the cup. And I rejoice to say, that those doctrines are the choice of my heart to this day.
​

Nettles said, "By this Carey meant that his theology solidified into a systematic and warmly evangelical Calvinism. Hall's book consisted of a pastoral presentation of the Calvinistic theology of the Particular Baptists. As well as providing a clear defense of Calvinism from several objections, the veneratd minister wanted to show the doctrines of God's Sovereignty gave a solid foundation for hope in the mercy of God."

pg 283

Very good. Thank you. Original source quotes is what this thread is about. I'll take a look at Robert Hall's book on Google and see for myself what Carey meant. Carey was largely self taught in theology, so this kind of statement from him is very important.

 

[Luke2427]

Very good. Thank you. Original source quotes is what this thread is about. I'll take a look at Robert Hall's book on Google and see for myself what Carey meant. Carey was largely self taught in theology, so this kind of statement from him is very important.

You are more than welcome.

Kudos on a good topic for discussion, btw!:thumbsup:

 

[John of Japan]

You are more than welcome.

Kudos on a good topic for discussion, btw!:thumbsup:

Thank you.

Easy to see in the first few pages how Carey would have been helped in understanding the incarnation and trinity, key doctrines for confronting Hindus.

By the way, Carey's Bengali Bible is still in print and used. I saw a copy when I was in Bangladesh two years ago.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The Question Is

what did these early missionaries mean by Calvinism. Their definition may or may not be the one bantered about in 2011. IOW, what Carey and Company meant by the description may not be what Pastor Fredrick Littlebridge of Calvary Reformed Baptist of Salada Beach, CA means by it.

 

[Luke2427]

what did these early missionaries mean by Calvinism. Their definition may or may not be the one bantered about in 2011. IOW, what Carey and Company meant by the description may not be what Pastor Fredrick Littlebridge of Calvary Reformed Baptist of Salada Beach, CA means by it.

It would have been classical Calvinism.

Calvinism was LESS splintered then than it is today.

For example, if I recall, Geisler calls himself a Calvinist (he uses the qualifier "moderate") while attacking true or classical Calvinism.

In the old days when these Calvinist missionaries were circumnavigating the world with the Gospel there was very little of this new, nameless theology which clings to eternal security and denies the essence of the other four points of Calvinism.

Calvinists were real Calvinists for the most part.

 

[John of Japan]

what did these early missionaries mean by Calvinism. Their definition may or may not be the one bantered about in 2011. IOW, what Carey and Company meant by the description may not be what Pastor Fredrick Littlebridge of Calvary Reformed Baptist of Salada Beach, CA means by it.

Good question.

I do think the two sides got along better than we do nowadays, anyway. I recently read of the split between Wesley and Whitefield, in spite of which each would not allow a new church of their brand to be started where the other group had one. And Wesley preached Whitefield's funeral.

 

[John of Japan]

Straying a little from the OP (mine own...), I think those missionaries (especially the three we've been talking about) knew the sovereignty of God in a more real and direct way, a practical way, than most of us today. Reading their biographies, I've been struck by the incredible hardships all three men suffered for Christ.

Comparatively, I've suffered very little physically as a missionary. But there have been times of inner pain so great that I knew the Holy Spirit was praying for me in groanings which cannot be uttered. To know God is in complete control at such times is a very great comfort.

Think of Judson, in a Burmese prison with his precious Bible translation mss. for his pillow. Every day they would come in and take a prisoner to be executed. His feet were tied to a pole which was elevated, causing pain. His diet was sparse, his clothes tattered, his dreams for Burmese disciples shattered. But God....

Think of Carey, with a mentally ill wife, in a country filled with lying, stealing and the most awful, pernicious idolatry. Then his warehouse burned down, and all his work was gone. But God....

There was Taylor, breaking new ground as a missionary, following the disgraced Gutzlaff's method of dressing like and acting like the Chinese, criticized on all sides by the other missoinaries. Then one day he was in a city in inland China, with everyone in town wanting the "foreign devils" dead, wondering if he would live the night. But God....