Were the reformers right?

[Guido]

The reformation dawned, since scripture was kept from the eyes of the people, and salvation by faith alone was rejected as truth. This is a claim I may be wrong about; I'd been reading a book in defense of free grace, but much of what I read, my memory lost. Nevertheless, concerning the reformers, were they right about all they taught, inasmuch as they added works to faith, by demanding as proof of eternal life, fruit in the ones who claim they believe in Jesus?

I probably got some of the phrasing of this post from elsewhere but I'm not profiting from this.

I'll get back to reading the books I bought, as soon I'm able to concentrate long enough.

 

[canadyjd]

The reformation dawned, since scripture was kept from the eyes of the people, and salvation by faith alone was rejected as truth. This is a claim I may be wrong about; I'd been reading a book in defense of free grace, but much of what I read, my memory lost. Nevertheless, concerning the reformers, were they right about all they taught, inasmuch as they added works to faith, by demanding as proof of eternal life, fruit in the ones who claim they believe in Jesus?

I probably got some of the phrasing of this post from elsewhere but I'm not profiting from this.

I'll get back to reading the books I bought, as soon I'm able to concentrate long enough.

Which reformers added works to faith as “proof” of salvation?

peace to you

 

[JD731]

The reformation dawned, since scripture was kept from the eyes of the people, and salvation by faith alone was rejected as truth. This is a claim I may be wrong about; I'd been reading a book in defense of free grace, but much of what I read, my memory lost. Nevertheless, concerning the reformers, were they right about all they taught, inasmuch as they added works to faith, by demanding as proof of eternal life, fruit in the ones who claim they believe in Jesus?

I probably got some of the phrasing of this post from elsewhere but I'm not profiting from this.

I'll get back to reading the books I bought, as soon I'm able to concentrate long enough.

A good question is what did the reformers reform?

 

[canadyjd]

A good question is what did the reformers reform?

They were basically Catholic priests wanting to reform the teachings of the Catholic Church to be aligned with scripture.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

salvation by faith alone

is UNBIBLICAL, says Jesus Christ Himself, in Mark 1:15, where He is very clear that REPENTING from personal sins is also a requirement with FAITH.

Reformed theology says that sinners are Justified by faith alone, but this is NOT taught anywhere in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible!

 

[atpollard]

is UNBIBLICAL, says Jesus Christ Himself, in Mark 1:15, where He is very clear that REPENTING from personal sins is also a requirement with FAITH.

Reformed theology says that sinners are Justified by faith alone, but this is NOT taught anywhere in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible!

• [Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB95] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I have been saved through faith, not as a result of works … TRUE or FALSE?

 

[SavedByGrace]

• [Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB95] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I have been saved through faith, not as a result of works … TRUE or FALSE?

it is SALVATION in here that is the GIFT, and not FAITH.

 

[atpollard]

it is SALVATION in here that is the GIFT, and not FAITH.

Non sequitur.
Answer the question that was asked.

PAUL said: “ For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

So was the claim that we “have been saved through faith” and “not as a result of works” true or false?

You are making a definitive statement that what Paul said is false and we are not “saved through faith” …

Reformed theology says that sinners are Justified by faith alone, but this is NOT taught anywhere in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Non sequitur.
Answer the question that was asked.

PAUL said: “ For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

So was the claim that we “have been saved through faith” and “not as a result of works” true or false?

You are making a definitive statement that what Paul said is false and we are not “saved through faith” …

you are trying to make repenting, which Jesus demanded prior to a sinner being saved, as a "work", this is nonsense. I will repeat what I have said many times here on BB, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any sinner to be saved apart from "REPENTANCE and FAITH". Any other way is FALSE!

 

[AustinC]

@Guido
I will nitpick your OP.
The Reformers we're dealing with Justification by faith alone as opposed to Justification by faith plus works, as taught by Rome. There are Baptists here (@kyredneck) who follow the RCC teaching of faith plus works.

You declared the Reformers we're addressing salvation by faith alone. That is inaccurate. As the Bible teaches, we are saved by grace alone. Salvation is not equal to Justification. These are two different things.
Salvation comes first. God chooses to save his elect persons by zero merit from the human being. This is why @SavedByGrace is wrong. He makes salvation a merited thing based on the human repenting first before God can do anything to save. He misunderstands Jesus call to repentance given to the chosen people of Israel, under the Old Covenant and forces it onto people who are under the New Covenant. He cannot see his error.

Salvation comes first, by grace alone. Faith is given as a gift to the chosen. This faith is what Justifies the believer in a legal proceeding before God, the just Judge.

The Reformers dealt with Justification by Faith alone. Rome added works to that justification. This argument is still taking place in the church. Many protestant groups have fallen back to follow the RCC teaching so much so that a new Reformation is in order. As you can see in this thread, there are people who have no understanding of grace and call works of men, "grace " They are ignorant of scripture even though they view themselves as learned.

I will leave this to others to argue as this has been addressed and nauseam here at the BB.

 

[Silverhair]

@Guido
I will nitpick your OP.
The Reformers we're dealing with Justification by faith alone as opposed to Justification by faith plus works, as taught by Rome. There are Baptists here (@kyredneck) who follow the RCC teaching of faith plus works.

You declared the Reformers we're addressing salvation by faith alone. That is inaccurate. As the Bible teaches, we are saved by grace alone. Salvation is not equal to Justification. These are two different things.
Salvation comes first. God chooses to save his elect persons by zero merit from the human being. This is why @SavedByGrace is wrong. He makes salvation a merited thing based on the human repenting first before God can do anything to save. He misunderstands Jesus call to repentance given to the chosen people of Israel, under the Old Covenant and forces it onto people who are under the New Covenant. He cannot see his error.

Salvation comes first, by grace alone. Faith is given as a gift to the chosen. This faith is what Justifies the believer in a legal proceeding before God, the just Judge.

The Reformers dealt with Justification by Faith alone. Rome added works to that justification. This argument is still taking place in the church. Many protestant groups have fallen back to follow the RCC teaching so much so that a new Reformation is in order. As you can see in this thread, there are people who have no understanding of grace and call works of men, "grace " They are ignorant of scripture even though they view themselves as learned.

I will leave this to others to argue as this has been addressed and nauseam here at the BB.

Austin here you go again throwing your theological views into scripture. By your own words you have people saved before they even believe in the Son. Since were told we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus that presents a problem for you.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. So it would seem that we have to hear the message first Rom 10:17 and then believe the message Eph 1:13 and then we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Let look at
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
So according to Paul, one must believe before they will be saved.

But according to your view Paul should have replied this way to the question:
"You can do nothing, if God has not chosen you and given you faith your doomed, you can not be saved."

Now I ask you Austin who should I trust to give me the truth, you or Paul? Remember we are told by Paul that we are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith.

By your logic people do not even have to hear of or believe in the Son to be saved. What is your justification for that view?

 

[AustinC]

Austin here you go again throwing your theological views into scripture. By your own words you have people saved before they even believe in the Son. Since were told we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus that presents a problem for you.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. So it would seem that we have to hear the message first Rom 10:17 and then believe the message Eph 1:13 and then we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Let look at
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
So according to Paul, one must believe before they will be saved.

But according to your view Paul should have replied this way to the question:
"You can do nothing, if God has not chosen you and given you faith your doomed, you can not be saved."

Now I ask you Austin who should I trust to give me the truth, you or Paul? Remember we are told by Paul that we are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith.

By your logic people do not even have to hear of or believe in the Son to be saved. What is your justification for that view?

Talk to us when you actually have the whole of scripture rather than a philosophical pretext filled with one sentence prooftext.
Until then, you are nothing but a clanging gong and noisy cymbal.

 

[Silverhair]

Talk to us when you actually have the whole of scripture rather than a philosophical pretext filled with one sentence prooftext.
Until then, you are nothing but a clanging gong and noisy cymbal.

Still do not deal with the truth of scripture do you. You just prattle on and say nothing. Show me where the verses I posted are not supported by the context.

 

[JonC]

The Reformers were right about some, wrong about some.

We have to keep in mind the Reformation was not a return to Scripture but an address about what they saw as wrong with the Roman Catholic Church (starting with Indulgences, which was a grace by works).

The Reformers kept a lot of extra-biblical Roman Catholic doctrine, and this bleeds over today. The Radical Reformation ("the Second wave") was an attempt to push further, but for the most part it fell on deaf ears.

 

[atpollard]

you are trying to make repenting, which Jesus demanded prior to a sinner being saved, as a "work", this is nonsense. I will repeat what I have said many times here on BB, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any sinner to be saved apart from "REPENTANCE and FAITH". Any other way is FALSE!

Repenting is a work … it is an action taken by men.

It is one of the “good works” of Ephesians 2:10 that God’s ‘masterworks’ are to walk in and it is one of the works of James 2 that reveals a “living” and not a “dead” faith.

None the less, “you have been saved through faith“ (Ephesians 2:8) is a true statement, worthy of acceptance … no matter how many times you deny it or attempt to beguile with irrelevant comments of attempt to refute it with “scripture pong”. Paul said what he said (and meant it).

FAITH is the root from which salvation grows and REPENTANCE is the fruit that is produced. So, I agree that a tree with no fruit is a dead tree … but that does not make the fruit suddenly become a life-giving root from which the tree grows.

 

[AustinC]

The Reformers were right about some, wrong about some.

We have to keep in mind the Reformation was not a return to Scripture but an address about what they saw as wrong with the Roman Catholic Church (starting with Indulgences, which was a grace by works).

The Reformers kept a lot of extra-biblical Roman Catholic doctrine, and this bleeds over today. The Radical Reformation ("the Second wave") was an attempt to push further, but for the most part it fell on deaf ears.

This begs the question: Which Reformer are we talking about? Note that the key Reformers disagreed not only with Rome, but also with each other. Luther and Zwingli agreed on most things, yet went to war over communion (Zwingli was correct, but died in battle).

 

[AustinC]

Still do not deal with the truth of scripture do you. You just prattle on and say nothing. Show me where the verses I posted are not supported by the context.

I have showed you so very many times. You are a brick wall of stubbornness who will not receive the full counsel of God's Word. Get thee behind me...

 

[Silverhair]

I have showed you so very many times. You are a brick wall of stubbornness who will not receive the full counsel of God's Word. Get thee behind me...

Austin what you keep showing is your calvinist theology not the bible. You think that view is superior to the bible, I do not. You deny clear scripture when it is presented and just wave your hands and say you got it wrong. You keep saying look at the context, I wish you would do that Austin as it would eliminate many of the problems you have with scripture.

You will continue to hold to your calvinism and I will continue to hold to the bible as it is written. So we will continue to disagree, such is life.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Repenting is a work … it is an action taken by men.

It is one of the “good works” of Ephesians 2:10 that God’s ‘masterworks’ are to walk in and it is one of the works of James 2 that reveals a “living” and not a “dead” faith.

None the less, “you have been saved through faith“ (Ephesians 2:8) is a true statement, worthy of acceptance … no matter how many times you deny it or attempt to beguile with irrelevant comments of attempt to refute it with “scripture pong”. Paul said what he said (and meant it).

FAITH is the root from which salvation grows and REPENTANCE is the fruit that is produced. So, I agree that a tree with no fruit is a dead tree … but that does not make the fruit suddenly become a life-giving root from which the tree grows.

this is where the Reformed get their theology wrong. God Commands that all sinners must REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, before they can be saved, which is what Jesus says cery clearly in Mark 1:15, Luke 13:1-5, 24:47 (NASB/ESV), and Peter in Acts 2:37-38. When the sinners OBEYS this Just Command, they DO something, which is to REPENT and BELIEVE, they do not MERIT anything, as no "good works" are involved, but OBEDIENCE.

A good example is Jonah chapter 3, where Jonah returns to Nineveh, to preach the Message of salvation that God had given him. Their reaction is clear, "But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?" (8-9). In verse 10 the KJV reads, "And God saw their WORKS (ma·‘ă·śê·hem, "deeds done") that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not". It is clear what these WORKS are, "that they turned from their evil way", which is what REPENTING from sins is. God saved them on account of their ACTIONS. This is Scripture, and not theology! The same is seen in Acts 10, "Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and DOES what is right" (34-35).

Your argument is against the Bible

 

[JonC]

This begs the question: Which Reformer are we talking about? Note that the key Reformers disagreed not only with Rome, but also with each other. Luther and Zwingli agreed on most things, yet went to war over communion (Zwingli was correct, but died in battle).

All were right in some things, wrong in others.

I'd put Zwingli a bit more right (he died in battle ... caved in ... over baptism as well).

But I think that they should have stuck with Scripture. There remained too steeped in Catholic traditions (which is, obviously, understandable).