Were the reformers right?

[atpollard]

this is where the Reformed get their theology wrong. God Commands that all sinners must REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, before they can be saved, which is what Jesus says cery clearly in Mark 1:15 (NASB/ESV)

• And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I posted Mark 1:15 above. Please underline where it says CLEARLY that “all sinners must REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, before they can be saved”. I see NOTHING about “before they can be saved”.

You have handled to word of God dishonestly. It does not say what you claim it says.

Ephesians 2:8, in contrast, DOES SAY: “you have been saved through faith”. You can look it up for yourself. You can quote it back to me and it WILL contain the words that I claim it contains. Yet you refuse to address the words that actually do appear in Ephesians 2:8 except to say that “Reformers got their theology wrong” and to make false claims about what Mark 1:15 states.

I know whose report I will believe. I will believe the actual WORDS OF GOD and I will urge you to read what they ACTUALLY SAY. If you think that God says that He cannot do something unless men do something first, then post a clear verse that says so. Ephesians 2 clearly states otherwise (and it is not the only verse that does).

 

[SavedByGrace]

• And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I posted Mark 1:15 above. Please underline where it says CLEARLY that “all sinners must REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, before they can be saved”. I see NOTHING about “before they can be saved”.

You have handled to word of God dishonestly. It does not say what you claim it says.

Ephesians 2:8, in contrast, DOES SAY: “you have been saved through faith”. You can look it up for yourself. You can quote it back to me and it WILL contain the words that I claim it contains. Yet you refuse to address the words that actually do appear in Ephesians 2:8 except to say that “Reformers got their theology wrong” and to make false claims about what Mark 1:15 states.

I know whose report I will believe. I will believe the actual WORDS OF GOD and I will urge you to read what they ACTUALLY SAY. If you think that God says that He cannot do something unless men do something first, then post a clear verse that says so. Ephesians 2 clearly states otherwise (and it is not the only verse that does).

were those who hear Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2, saved before they asked, "what must we do?" (verse 37)?

They were NOT, Peter says to them to REPENT... for the forgiveness of their sins, and only then they were saved

In Acts chapter 3 Peter says, "repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (19)

Paul says in 2 Cor 7:10, "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly grief produces death"

LEADS TO SALVATION means that it is BEFORE a sinner is saved!

Reformed theology is AGAINST the Bible!

 

[AustinC]

were those who hear Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2, saved before they asked, "what must we do?" (verse 37)?

They were NOT, Peter says to them to REPENT... for the forgiveness of their sins, and only then they were saved

In Acts chapter 3 Peter says, "repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (19)

Paul says in 2 Cor 7:10, "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly grief produces death"

LEADS TO SALVATION means that it is BEFORE a sinner is saved!

Reformed theology is AGAINST the Bible!

Before they repented, were they or were they not "cut to the heart?"

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Your rejection of salvation by grace alone is well known. It makes your moniker ironic. You cannot see what you cannot see. I accept that God will have to open your eyes in this matter. I can only show you that the very passages you cling to are passages that show you God's redemptive work comes before the effect of repentance, I cannot make you believe it.

 

[JD731]

• [Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB95] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I have been saved through faith, not as a result of works … TRUE or FALSE?

Calvinists proclaims that they have not been saved because of anything they believe. They claim they believe what they believe because of being saved. This is another gospel.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Calvinists proclaims that they have not been saved because of anything they believe. They claim they believe what they believe because of being saved. This is another gospel.

Reformed theology on the salvation of sinners is HERESY, as it is against the Teachings of the Holy Bible

No repentance = No salvation

 

[SavedByGrace]

• And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I posted Mark 1:15 above. Please underline where it says CLEARLY that “all sinners must REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, before they can be saved”. I see NOTHING about “before they can be saved”.

You have handled to word of God dishonestly. It does not say what you claim it says.

Ephesians 2:8, in contrast, DOES SAY: “you have been saved through faith”. You can look it up for yourself. You can quote it back to me and it WILL contain the words that I claim it contains. Yet you refuse to address the words that actually do appear in Ephesians 2:8 except to say that “Reformers got their theology wrong” and to make false claims about what Mark 1:15 states.

I know whose report I will believe. I will believe the actual WORDS OF GOD and I will urge you to read what they ACTUALLY SAY. If you think that God says that He cannot do something unless men do something first, then post a clear verse that says so. Ephesians 2 clearly states otherwise (and it is not the only verse that does).

are these Reformed theologians all wrong, and modern theology right?

The Reformers on the Necessity for Repentance and the Works of Sanctification – Christian Resources

Thomas Watson sums this up the best:

"Repentance is of such importance that there is no being saved without it"

 

[kyredneck]

@Guido
I will nitpick your OP.
The Reformers we're dealing with Justification by faith alone as opposed to Justification by faith plus works, as taught by Rome. There are Baptists here (@kyredneck) who follow the RCC teaching of faith plus works.

What's tiresome and so redundant on this board is parrots like yourself that pick up a little Reformed Theology, get their brains sucked out and replaced with creeds and solas, never to have an original Bible thought of their own after that, and attack, insult, criticize, and spread falsehoods on those that do exercise their Right Of Private Judgement. It's called herd mentality, but not everyone is a conformist, there's still a few Bereans around.

@Guido, it is a bald-faced lie on Austin's part that I have ever followed RCC teaching of any kind. It is AustinC who blindly follows erroneous anti-scriptural teaching. He's unable to produce even one itsy bitsy passage from scripture that teaches 'justification by faith alone' because scripture actually refutes it. Justification is not linked to faith only, the scripture is abundantly clear on that:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

 

[Van]

The reformation dawned, since scripture was kept from the eyes of the people, and salvation by faith alone was rejected as truth. This is a claim I may be wrong about; I'd been reading a book in defense of free grace, but much of what I read, my memory lost. Nevertheless, concerning the reformers, were they right about all they taught, inasmuch as they added works to faith, by demanding as proof of eternal life, fruit in the ones who claim they believe in Jesus?

I probably got some of the phrasing of this post from elsewhere but I'm not profiting from this.

I'll get back to reading the books I bought, as soon I'm able to concentrate long enough.

I think you stated your question well. Is claiming "faith" as credited by God, as described as live faith rather than dead faith, adding works to sustain salvation?

The answer, at least my answer, is no, the belief that those actually born anew demonstrate their spiritual transformation with a changed life is sound biblical doctrine. Thus works provides assurance, whereas "dead faith" provides a lack of conviction, or a lack of evidence of a deeply rooted faith. Thus soils number two and three of Matthew 13 are akin to the soils advocated by "easy believism."

 

[AustinC]

Reformed theology on the salvation of sinners is HERESY, as it is against the Teachings of the Holy Bible

No repentance = No salvation

Required repentance before salvation = saved by works.
Anyone attempting to be saved by works is not saved by grace and indeed is not saved at all.

 

[Van]

Faith is not works. Romans 4:16

 

[Van]

A faithful believer committed from the get go to be willing to walk through fire for the Lord.

They went "all in" with their love of Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Faith is not works. Romans 4:16

Faith is a gift from God, after God has redeemed the sinner. It is an effect of salvation, not a cause.

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV)

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:1(NLT)

This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.

Anyone teaching faith comes before salvation is just openly denying what the Apostles tell us.

 

[Van]

Faith is a gift from God, after God has redeemed the sinner. It is an effect of salvation, not a cause.

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV)

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:1(NLT)

This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.

Anyone teaching faith comes before salvation is just openly denying what the Apostles tell us.

I am sorry you persist in spreading falsehoods. No one denies God's revelation provides the information in which we place our trust, but to misconstrue this revelatory grace as God instilling faith via irresistible grace is hogwash.

You deny 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly teaches individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus faith comes before even being chosen individually for salvation. You can deny this till the cows come home. it is still God's truth.

 

[AustinC]

I am sorry you persist in spreading falsehoods. No one denies God's revelation provides the information in which we place our trust, but to misconstrue this revelatory grace as God instilling faith via irresistible grace is hogwash.

You deny 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly teaches individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus faith comes before even being chosen individually for salvation. You can deny this till the cows come home. it is still God's truth.

You are utterly wrong in your understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2 and you openly reject 2 Peter 1:1.
You can deny this until the cows come home. It is still God's truth.

Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14 and see the context. Then realize you are wrong.

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Van]

You are utterly wrong in your understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2 and you openly reject 2 Peter 1:1.
You can deny this until the cows come home. It is still God's truth.

Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14 and see the context. Then realize you are wrong.

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The thing I reject is your falsehoods. 2 Peter 1:1 agrees with me over and against your silly claim.
And note once again, this Calvinist chooses a mistranslation (to be saved) rather than what God's word actually says, using a noun, "salvation." But his very quote says chose you through faith in the truth, but claims the magical voo doo dust (Calvinist context) changes the word from a noun to a verb.

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.​

Here in Calvinism's ignorance, he thinks "foreknowledge" refers to future knowledge, rather than knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, being utilized in the present. The individuals were chosen according to God predetermined plan to choose believers.

 

[AustinC]

The thing I reject is your falsehoods. 2 Peter 1:1 agrees with me over and against your silly claim.
And note once again, this Calvinist chooses a mistranslation (to be saved) rather than what God's word actually says, using a noun, "salvation." But his very quote says chose you through faith in the truth, but claims the magical voo doo dust (Calvinist context) changes the word from a noun to a verb.

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.​

Here in Calvinism's ignorance, he thinks "foreknowledge" refers to future knowledge, rather than knowledge acquired or formulated in the past, being utilized in the present. The individuals were chosen according to God predetermined plan to choose believers.

Good night, you are denying the specific statement by Peter that clearly presents faith being given by God after God has redeemed the sinner. It's useless to talk with you when you openly deny the text of scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Calvinists proclaims that they have not been saved because of anything they believe. They claim they believe what they believe because of being saved.

A bit oversimplified, but essentially correct and per John 6 and John 10.

This is another gospel.

Unsubstantiated opinion.
Stating facts not in evidence.

 

[Van]

Good night, you are denying the specific statement by Peter that clearly presents faith being given by God after God has redeemed the sinner. It's useless to talk with you when you openly deny the text of scripture.

Repeating your mistaken claim does not move the needle. Foreknowledge refers to knowledge acquired or formulated in the past and being utilized in the present. And you are denying 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[atpollard]

are these Reformed theologians all wrong, and modern theology right?

The Reformers on the Necessity for Repentance and the Works of Sanctification – Christian Resources

Thomas Watson sums this up the best:

"Repentance is of such importance that there is no being saved without it"

I am not “anti-repentance”.
I am opposed to people claiming that a verse says something when the verse does not. I accused you of incorrectly quoting scripture (Mark 1:15 to be specific) and claiming “thus says the Lord” when the Lord said no such thing in the referenced verse.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am not “anti-repentance”.
I am opposed to people claiming that a verse says something when the verse does not. I accused you of incorrectly quoting scripture (Mark 1:15 to be specific) and claiming “thus says the Lord” when the Lord said no such thing in the referenced verse.

then explain what Jesus says in Matthew 4:17; 11:20; Mark 1:15; 6:12; Luke 13:1-5; 16:30; 24:47 (NASB, ESV), etc if this does not mean sorry for and turning from sins before a sinner is saved? Both Peter and Paul understood this is what Jesus meant

Jesus continued what John the Baptist preached, " John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (Mark 1:4). Verse 15 is exactly this, "repentance for the forgiveness of sins", BEFORE salvation.