Were the tongues the same?

[awaken]

Point #2...

Acts 2 was a fulfillment of prophecy, but in 1 Cor. Paul was rebuking them for doing prophecy wrong.

So if they were doing it wrong, and Paul was teaching the right way of doing it. Then this proves there is a right way of manifesting the Holy Spirit!

This does not prove the tongues were different!

Point #3...

Acts 2 was all about the fullness of the Holy Spirit, but 1 Cor. 12-14 doesn't even mention it, and it is arguable whether or not the whole book even talks about it!

How does this prove the tongues were different? Are you saying now that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not happen in Corinthians and now?
You are asking the wrong questions and they only disprove your theory!

Point #4

In Acts 2 there were 3000 saved, but when Paul referred to tongues in 1 Cor. 12-14 there is nothing about anyone being saved!

This only proves my point that tongues were never for the purpose of spreading the gospel.

It was PETER that preached the Word in Acts that lead 3,000 to Christ...not the ones speaking in tongues.
The ones In Acts 2 were speaking to God the wonderful works...

"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

In Corinthians He was correcting them about using tongues (speaking to God) in the assembly.
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5) He says if it is done in church there needs to be an interpretatin.

Point #5

To put it another way, in Acts 2 evangelism to the lost took place, but in 1 Cor. the tongues were to church peoplePoint

Again, tongues did not evangelize! Peter did the preaching! The manifestations were given to the church to edify, build up and comfort! To profit all...again this does not prove they were different!

#6...

In Acts 2 there were no limitations given for the tongues, but in 1 Cor. there are various limitations laid down by Paul: not all speak with tongues (12:30), love is more important (ch. 13), it is better to prophesy than to speak in tongues (14:5), everyone should not speak in tongues at the same time (14:23), always have an interpreter (14:27), etc

How would there be limitations...it was the first time they spoke in tongues. YOu are grasping at straws with this one!

Now answer my question...Who were the 120 speaking too? You avoided this question on the other thread too, Why?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Is There An Interpreter Present???

Paul did not consider it an important gift; that is why it is listed last in 1Cor.12:28. Here you have taken these verses out of context.

In verse two, "he that speaks in another language does not speak unto men." It is unprofitable. This is a rebuke. Don't do it, he is telling them. Why? All that you are doing is speaking mysteries. Who wants to hear mysteries. Speak the truth so that people can understand it. That is the meaning of the verse. He was not advocating speaking in tongues.

In verse 18 he thanks God that he spoke in tongues more than they, because they abused the gift, and the gift was not necessary for them to use. They should seek after more profitable gifts such as prophesy or teaching--those gifts which would edify the body. In fact, Paul himself said that he would rather speak five words with understanding then 10,000 words in tongues. Put in that perspective, tongues didn't have much value did it?

:laugh:I hear people speaking in tongues every week!!!When my wife and I go to the local Mexican Restaurant for our weekly dinner after Wednesday Nite Prayer meeting we hear the employees there speaking in tongues EVERY TIME WE GO. Hearing them speak does me no good at all since I don't speak Spanish. It is nonsensical gibberish to me since I have NO UNDERSTANDING. The only thing that edifies me there is that wonderful plate of food they bring me!!:laugh: At least they can make sense to each other about the messed up order the gringo and his senorita just tried to order.:wavey:

Bro.Greg

 

[awaken]

The timing of the arrival of the others does not give indication as to who the tongues were for. But the fact that the disciples were speaking in the language of the people that heard them, and they had never learned these languages before, shows that the gospel being spoken in tongues was for the "foreigners". Add to that the fact that about 3000 people were added tot he church on that day.

John does not want me to hijack his thread but I will reply to this...
Who were they speaking to before they came, and what did the foreigners hear? Because I see Peter preaching the word...and that is what lead them to Christ..not the tongues.

1Co 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

...and what sign is it?

 

[awaken]

Are you sure about that?
Mormons speak in tongues.
Hindus speak in tongues.
Even the Haitian Voodoo priests speak in tongues.

Does that sound like all speaking in tongues is done by the Holy Spirit?
You said:
"No one can speak in tongues without having the Holy Spirit."

Even 1Cor.12:1-3 nullifies that.

I should have clarified the ones mentioned in the Bible!!!! :thumbs:

 

[John of Japan]

Because you know to answer this question will disprove your theory.
But I will address what you have stated....so that I will not "hijack" your thread.

This is a ridiculous post because of the facts that (1) you can't read my mind and don't know what I know, and (2) I did answer you on this matter in your thread on 1 Cor. 12-14, and you completely ignored my answer (in spite of your complaint that I was not readig all of your posts).

You are trying to prove what by this? That tongues are not the same because Corinthians is a carnal church? This only proves that you do not have to be a mature christian to manifest the Holy Spirit. He never said they could not manifest or were not manifesting...just that they were doing it out of order.

Tongues are a result of the fullness of the Holy Spirit according to you, correct? So then what you are apparently saying is that you can be full of the Holy Spirit while mired in carnal sin. Is that correct?

The validity of an "administration of the Holy Spirit" never depends on the spiritual maturity of believers in the church or their conduct. It stands as independent truth regardless of how God's people live. This argument has no merit in the discussion other than to be used as a "smoke and mirror" tactic. It is like saying Christ's salvation isn't importand because some of his people sin and act in an unrighteous manner from time to time. The salvation provided by Jesus Christ is true, even if no one on earth believes in it. It's the same way with the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues.

Then please explain to me why tongues are mentioned in no other Pauline epistle but this one to a carnal church. So, Biblically speaking, a carnal church=needs to know about tongues, but a spiritual church=can ignore the subject completely.

Tongues represents a spiritual way to speak (pray) to God. And Paul considered speaking in tongues important and practiced it more thatn the Corinthians- so the carnality argument has no meaning.

I asked you once to prove that Paul's tongues were miraculous, but you didn't really do so. Paul spoke in the Hebrew tongue in Acts 22:2. Was that miraculous? He wrote his epistles in the Greek tongue. Was that miraculous?

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Cor. 14:2)

Paul said "I thank God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (1 Cor. 14:18)
The scriptures do not teach anywhere that tongues is a "badge" for spiritual maturity.

I'm glad to read this from you. Unfortunately the standard Charismatic belief is that they ARE a badge for spiritual maturity. This is why Charismatics split so many churches. They think: "My tongues are a wonderful gift from God. These poor suckers in this church don't know about tongues, therefore I must teach them." And it is why people like you have no objection when tongues speakers steal sheep and split churches, because it could only be from Satan to stop tongues in their mind.

 

[John of Japan]

Point #2...

So if they were doing it wrong, and Paul was teaching the right way of doing it. Then this proves there is a right way of manifesting the Holy Spirit!

This does not prove the tongues were different!

Which brings me to ask, how do you know that you are doing it right? How do you know that you are speaking a real language when you do tongues, and not just same jabber like all of the linguists say who have examined tongues?

Point #3...

How does this prove the tongues were different? Are you saying now that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not happen in Corinthians and now?
You are asking the wrong questions and they only disprove your theory!

Now you have it! Yes, I'm saying that there is no evidence that the Corinthians were filled with the Spirit. Therefore, how could they have been doing the correct tongues, since the believers in Acts 2 WERE filled with the Spirit?

Point #4

This only proves my point that tongues were never for the purpose of spreading the gospel.

It was PETER that preached the Word in Acts that lead 3,000 to Christ...not the ones speaking in tongues.
The ones In Acts 2 were speaking to God the wonderful works...

The fact remains that the two occasions were very different. In Acts we have a huge revival going on, but in Corinth we had carnality galore.

In Corinthians He was correcting them about using tongues (speaking to God) in the assembly.
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5) He says if it is done in church there needs to be an interpretatin.

Yes, thank you for making my point. In Acts it was not done in a church, but in Corinth the tongues were right there in church. Very different circumstances, and things that are different are not the same.

Point #5

Again, tongues did not evangelize! Peter did the preaching! The manifestations were given to the church to edify, build up and comfort! To profit all...again this does not prove they were different!

Once again you missed the point. I did not say in my post that the tongues speakers were evangelizing (even though I think it is clear they were prophesying). I said that evangelism took place. To put it another way, there was a great revival going on in Acts, but the Corinthians were so far from revival it was pathetic. The obvious conclusion is that Cornthian tongues take place in a non-revival scenario.

#6...

How would there be limitations...it was the first time they spoke in tongues. YOu are grasping at straws with this one!

I still think it is a valid point, but you have given a good answer.

Now answer my question...Who were the 120 speaking too? You avoided this question on the other thread too, Why?

Go back and re-read the other thread. I did NOT avoid the question. On the contrary, you avoided my answer in spite of your complaint that I wasn't reading your posts.

 

[John of Japan]

That's my take on things after reading this thread and enjoying it. I will now recede back into the shadows from which I came....:laugh:! Besides...my fingers are worn out...I am a two-finger typist and it took me 45 minutes to accurately type this (I had to be very careful since I was typing out portions of God's Word!):type:

Bro.Greg

Try this next time. Do you have Bible software? If not, download the free e-Sword software at www.e-sword.net. Go to the passage, highlight it with your mouse. Right click with the mouse on the highlighted passage and click "copy." Come to Baptist Board, right click on the mouse, then click "paste" and you've got it! :thumbs:

 

[awaken]

Well, If we have debated this in other threads, then we have said all there is to say!

We are not going to change each other! You or anyone elses UNBELIEF can not take away what I know is from God. Only the HOly Spirit can open up our understanding. I went to Him asking and believing...and I received!

Tongue along with anything else concerning the Holy Spirit is supernatual! It is beyond our own natual ability (apart from God).

Tongues all through the Bible comes from the same Holy Spirit! There are several benefits from it! If you do not have the Holy Spirit...you can not manifest Him!

I just pray that this will get everyone to dig a little bit deeper! I have said all there is to say and answered repeatedly concerning tongues. So everyone knows what I believe and why! Once I have experienced the benefits of being in a church that manifest the power of the Holy Spirit....I can not go back! Baptist churches everywhere are taking a closer look into this and realizing there is more to it than what they were taught!

I have seen more people come to Christ, deliverance from addictions and lifestyles. More people fall back in Love with the one that Paid it all! Just by allowing the Power of the Holy Spirit back in there sanctuary! That is enought for me to know it is from God!...A form of godliness without the power is dead!

 

[John of Japan]

We are not going to change each other! You or anyone elses UNBELIEF can not take away what I know is from God. Only the HOly Spirit can open up our understanding. I went to Him asking and believing...and I received!

By this false accusation that I (I assume you are talking to me) am operating out of unbelief, you prove that you may think you know 1 Cor. 12 & 14, but you don't know 13. I suggest also that you don't even know the 10 Commandments, since you are bearing false witness.

I have seen more people come to Christ, deliverance from addictions and lifestyles. More people fall back in Love with the one that Paid it all! Just by allowing the Power of the Holy Spirit back in there sanctuary! That is enought for me to know it is from God!...A form of godliness without the power is dead!

You prove things by experience? I've been proving them by the Bible. Admit it then. You have no idea why there are so many differences between the tongues in Acts and 1 Cor.

And again you falsely accuse me (or apparently anyone who doesn't speak in tongues) of having a form of godliness without the power. You base these false accusations on the little bit of information you have here on the BB. Disraceful.

 

[DHK]

Well, If we have debated this in other threads, then we have said all there is to say!

Some people in the Corinthian Church were like you. They spoke in tongues, not knowing what they were saying. And in some cases it wasn't good.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

What they were doing: they were saying: "Jesus is accursed," and thinking that they were speaking by the Spirit of God.
You are doing the same thing. You don't know what you are saying and could be calling Christ accursed, just as some of the Corinthians did. How do you know if you are?? Any guarantees?

We are not going to change each other! You or anyone elses UNBELIEF can not take away what I know is from God. Only the HOly Spirit can open up our understanding. I went to Him asking and believing...and I received!

The Holy Spirit always works through the mind, with understanding. He never bypasses the mind. Once you bypass the mind you have given your mind over to the devil. That is not of God. Bypass your mind and you leave yourself open to demons. It is a terrible place to be in. Why do you think there are commands in the Bible:
Search the Scriptures.
Study to make thyself approved.
Meditate day and night on the Word of God.
Take heed unto thyself and to the doctrine.
Think on these things.
Bring every thought into captivity.

We are never to bypass our mind, leave it open, yield it, etc. But that is what people who speak in tongues do. They leave it open to demonic influence.

Your experience is not of the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit does not work that way.

Tongue along with anything else concerning the Holy Spirit is supernatual! It is beyond our own natual ability (apart from God).

IF "Tongues speaking" is supernatural, then it is supernatural because it is of the paranormal; demonic, not of God. Otherwise it is of a psychological manipulation of the mind. As you said, Bypass the conscious part of the mind and allow the subconscious to take over. It is dangerous, opening yourself up to other influences, but not necessarily demonic. It simply can lead that direction.

Tongues all through the Bible comes from the same Holy Spirit! There are several benefits from it! If you do not have the Holy Spirit...you can not manifest Him!

Tongues ceased in the first century.
The Bible proves this.
History proves this.
Our present day theology and activities proves this. No one speaks in Biblical tongues today--no one. You have not pointed to anyone that has manifested the gift of Biblical tongues. Why do Charismatic missionaries have to learn foreign languages? I will tell you. They don't have the gift of tongues.

I just pray that this will get everyone to dig a little bit deeper! I have said all there is to say and answered repeatedly concerning tongues. So everyone knows what I believe and why!

What you believe is in the category of heresy.

Once I have experienced the benefits of being in a church that manifest the power of the Holy Spirit....I can not go back!

You can't go back because you have allowed experience to be more important than doctrine. In fact your experience is teaching and controlling your beliefs. That is truly sad.

Baptist churches everywhere are taking a closer look into this and realizing there is more to it than what they were taught!

Why would Baptist churches want to look into the heresies they have already refuted and repudiated so many times already. It is all old hat to them.

I have seen more people come to Christ, deliverance from addictions and lifestyles. More people fall back in Love with the one that Paid it all!

If any of that has come to pass, it has been in spite of tongues, not because of it.

Just by allowing the Power of the Holy Spirit back in there sanctuary!

You haven't read the Bible close enough. God does not live in sanctuaries. Actually "sanctuaries" are "bird baths." Some sanctuaries are set apart for other wild life. :smilewinkgrin:
But the Holy Spirit indwells believers, not buildings.

That is enought for me to know it is from God!...A form of godliness without the power is dead!

Tongues comes, much of the time, straight from the pit of hell.
Is yours any different? Can you prove it? How do you know it is from God?
You don't even know what you are saying and yet you maintain it is from God. That is quite an amazing trick. Satan is very good at playing tricks. He is called "the Great Deceiver."

 

[awaken]

Some people in the Corinthian Church were like you. They spoke in tongues, not knowing what they were saying. And in some cases it wasn't good.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

What they were doing: they were saying: "Jesus is accursed," and thinking that they were speaking by the Spirit of God.
You are doing the same thing. You don't know what you are saying and could be calling Christ accursed, just as some of the Corinthians did. How do you know if you are?? Any guarantees?

You need to read it again! NO MAN that speaks by the Spirit of God (tongues=speaking in the spirit, praying in the spirit)called Jesus accursed. You are speaking the perfect will of God,. YOu can not call Jesus accursed in tongues becasue it is the Spirit that gives the utterance. (Acts 2:4)


[quote0The Holy Spirit always works through the mind, with understanding. He never bypasses the mind. Once you bypass the mind you have given your mind over to the devil. That is not of God. Bypass your mind and you leave yourself open to demons. It is a terrible place to be in. Why do you think there are commands in the Bible:
Search the Scriptures.
Study to make thyself approved.
Meditate day and night on the Word of God.
Take heed unto thyself and to the doctrine.
Think on these things.
Bring every thought into captivity.

We are never to bypass our mind, leave it open, yield it, etc. But that is what people who speak in tongues do. They leave it open to demonic influence.[/quote]
Paul says we give thanks well even if we do not know what we are saying! We just do not edify the church! All your debates contradict scripture. The Spirit works through our spirit! Our mind allows it to manifest or unbelief (through the mind) will quench it!

Your experience is not of the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit does not work that way.

When you get to know the Holy Spirit! He will lead you to the truth. Search the scriptures and you will find he can not be put in a box like most relligions want to do!

IF "Tongues speaking" is supernatural, then it is supernatural because it is of the paranormal; demonic, not of God. Otherwise it is of a psychological manipulation of the mind. As you said, Bypass the conscious part of the mind and allow the subconscious to take over. It is dangerous, opening yourself up to other influences, but not necessarily demonic. It simply can lead that direction.

Again, be careful...What God is doing today, not to call it demonic!

Tongues ceased in the first century.
The Bible proves this.
History proves this.
Our present day theology and activities proves this. No one speaks in Biblical tongues today--no one. You have not pointed to anyone that has manifested the gift of Biblical tongues. Why do Charismatic missionaries have to learn foreign languages? I will tell you. They don't have the gift of tongues.

I have explained this in another thread! You have the wrong idea of tongues! It is supernatural, a language that does not have to be learned! I know a lot of missionaries that speak in tongue, but they do not use it to spread the gospel, because that is not the purpose of it!

ANd you are anyone else has not proved in SCRIPTURES it has ceased! Only your lack of experience has proved it to yourself! UNBLLIEF in what the Bible says about it! You have to believe before you experience it! Faith comes first!

What you believe is in the category of heresy.

You can't go back because you have allowed experience to be more important than doctrine. In fact your experience is teaching and controlling your beliefs. That is truly sad.

No, my experience backs up my doctrine! You do not experience because you do not believe. (I am not saying you are not saved. But doctrine in the Bible has to be believed by faith..believing before you see it. You see it in the word...you believe it...you live it!)

Why would Baptist churches want to look into the heresies they have already refuted and repudiated so many times already. It is all old hat to them.

Maybe they are allowing God to open their eyes! I know I did! I went to God seeking truth! ....and don't tell me my father would teach me a lie! Make sure that what you believe is not just because man has taught it to you in seminary. Sincerely search this out!

If any of that has come to pass, it has been in spite of tongues, not because of it.

You guys are the ones that are hung up on tongues, I was wanting to talk about the whole 3 chapters in Cor. I never said tongues accomplished this! I said the freedom to let the Holy Spirit work did it!

You haven't read the Bible close enough. God does not live in sanctuaries. Actually "sanctuaries" are "bird baths." Some sanctuaries are set apart for other wild life. :smilewinkgrin:
But the Holy Spirit indwells believers, not buildings.

Wow! you really miss the points on purpose don't you! I agree that we are the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit! But we as people meet in a building that we call the sanctuary. Because we carry the Holy Spirit into the building!

Tongues comes, much of the time, straight from the pit of hell.
Is yours any different? Can you prove it? How do you know it is from God?
You don't even know what you are saying and yet you maintain it is from God. That is quite an amazing trick. Satan is very good at playing tricks. He is called "the Great Deceiver."

No, because I have prayed as God said and ask for interpretation...and he has given it to me! Awesome! If it was of satan it would not lead me closer to my Father! Since the baptism in the Holy Spirit..I have more boldness, more joy, more peace..do not get offended. And have experience things I have never experienced in the spirit! Not to mentioned a zeal for the Word of God!

DHK and others that do not believe the Holy Spirit manifest the same as Cor. 12 says....
I have been where you are! My heart goes out to you! Because their is life (salvation) and there is the more abundant! Seek, knock and ask! Our God is able and faithful~

 

[John of Japan]

I just pray that this will get everyone to dig a little bit deeper! I have said all there is to say and answered repeatedly concerning tongues. So everyone knows what I believe and why! Once I have experienced the benefits of being in a church that manifest the power of the Holy Spirit....I can not go back! Baptist churches everywhere are taking a closer look into this and realizing there is more to it than what they were taught!

I have seen more people come to Christ, deliverance from addictions and lifestyles. More people fall back in Love with the one that Paid it all! Just by allowing the Power of the Holy Spirit back in there sanctuary! That is enought for me to know it is from God!...A form of godliness without the power is dead!

This idea that only Charismatics know about the Holy Spirit, and only they can see God do great works, is very presumptuous, and not at all in line with the facts. The fullness of the Holy Spirit does not at all depend on Charismatic doctrine, or even a Biblical doctrine of the gifts of the Spirit. Those gifts are secondary to the filling of the Holy Spirit.

If you want experience, I can relate experience of the great power of God without the Charismatic doctrine. My grandfather saw great revivals with hundreds, even thousands saved, including prostitutes and drunkards and many others. My Mom's cousin Pete has mass evangelism meetings in many countries with many thousands attending and hundreds saved (but he keeps a sort of low profile). My friend Dr. T. in a Muslim land sees dozens baptized at one time, and has 2000 at time taking Bible correspondence courses. When I preached for him 800 heard me, and the national pastor baptized 48 who had already been saved. I could give many, many other illustrations.

In my own tiny ministry in this Gospel resistant land, I have seen a drug addict (now in Heaven but used of God), mentally ill people, a yakuza saved (Japanese mafia, baptized and growing in the Lord) and others. And all of this is because of God's Holy Spirit at work, not Charismatic doctrine or practice.

I have a library of at least 20 books on the Holy Spirit, including a few by Charismatics. I've studied the issue out deeply in the Word of God and these books. Believe me, Charismatic doctrine is a newcomer to the field. Many who do not speak in tongues and do not follow other Charismatic doctrine have seen God do great things and written wonderfully about it: John R. Rice, Lee Roberson, H. A. Ironside, Bob Jones Sr., and others before the Charismatic movement: S. D. Gordon, R. A. Torrey, James H. McConkey, A. J. Gordon and many others. The Charismatics are actually late comers to this issue!

Oh, yes, and that about tongues? Why are we standing so straight and tall against them? Tongues are the linchpin of the whole Charismatic doctrine. They are the trigger that leads people into the movement, as apparently happened with awaken. If tongues are not right, the rest is false--and false it is.

Again, tongues breed pride, and the tongues speakers (the ones I've met) usually look down on the rest of us. As one church history scholar wrote, "Spirit movements could breed pride just as they provided distance for their adherents. If the second blessing was a special gift, and Baptism in the Holy Spirit was an extraordinary experience, was it not inevitable that the less Spirit-blessed Christians would be looked down on?" ("Pentecostalism in American Piety and Practice," by Martin Marty in Aspects of Pentecostal-Charismatic Origins, ed. Vinson Synan--a Charismatic--on p. 227). I think we've seen that pride here on the BB.

 

[Don]

Awaken -- if they weren't different tongues in Acts 2, then why did the hearers ask how they heard them speaking in different languages?

If it's not different tongues in 1 Cor 14, then why do we see Paul reference a single tongue in verses 13 and 14, but multiple tongues in verses 5-6, 10, and 21?

And finally, you have repeatedly said that tongues weren't used for preaching; while that may be true, Paul tells us that using tongues is for witnessing to the unsaved (1 Cor 14:22). Tongues are not for we who believe.

 

[awaken]

Awaken -- if they weren't different tongues in Acts 2, then why did the hearers ask how they heard them speaking in different languages?

If it's not different tongues in 1 Cor 14, then why do we see Paul reference a single tongue in verses 13 and 14, but multiple tongues in verses 5-6, 10, and 21?

And finally, you have repeatedly said that tongues weren't used for preaching; while that may be true, Paul tells us that using tongues is for witnessing to the unsaved (1 Cor 14:22). Tongues are not for we who believe.

Could it be that in vs 13 and 14 he was speaking as an individual speaking only one language? Verses 5-6, 10 and 21 is because he is speaking to ALL, and different people can speak in different languages?
When I speak in tongues it is one language at a time...but each time it could change to a different language.

And how do you see that the sign is for the unbeliever? I posted this in another thread about the sign to an unbeliever. Tongues are not to convince the believer! They already believe! But they are to be done through a believer...because only a believer in the NT has the Holy Spirit, right?

In Acts 2 The believers were speaking! The unbelievers heard! This got their attention (a sign) because some said "what meaneth this" If tongues were preaching the gospel then they did not understand the message of the gospel! It was Peter that preached the Word and that is what lead many to Christ. The tongues were magnifying God (praising) just like in Acts 10. The tongues are speaking to God, unless in a church assembly the message is interpreted.

 

[Don]

Could it be that in vs 13 and 14 he was speaking as an individual speaking only one language? Verses 5-6, 10 and 21 is because he is speaking to ALL, and different people can speak in different languages?
When I speak in tongues it is one language at a time...but each time it could change to a different language.

Exactly. So tongues can be different languages.

And how do you see that the sign is for the unbeliever?

Because that's what scripture says in 1 Cor 14:22; tongues are for a sign to the unbeliever.

I posted this in another thread about the sign to an unbeliever. Tongues are not to convince the believer! They already believe! But they are to be done through a believer...because only a believer in the NT has the Holy Spirit, right?

Of course; but the question is why were they granted the power to speak in tongues they didn't know themselves, but were known by others?

In Acts 2 The believers were speaking! The unbelievers heard! This got their attention (a sign) because some said "what meaneth this"

Right; it sure got their attention, didn't it?

If tongues were preaching the gospel then they did not understand the message of the gospel! It was Peter that preached the Word and that is what lead many to Christ. The tongues were magnifying God (praising) just like in Acts 10. The tongues are speaking to God, unless in a church assembly the message is interpreted.

As I mentioned above, and what Paul emphasizes in 1 Cor 14, the question is what is the purpose of tongues. In Acts 2, the purpose wasn't to praise God; it was to draw others to hear the gospel. In 1 Cor 14:22, Paul makes it absolutely clear, just as you have, that believers don't need other tongues; but that they're a sign to unbelievers, to draw them so they may hear the gospel. And what more powerful way to draw an unbeliever is there than for that unbeliever to hear you speaking in their native tongue, when they know there's no way you should be able to speak their language?

 

[awaken]

This idea that only Charismatics know about the Holy Spirit, and only they can see God do great works, is very presumptuous, and not at all in line with the facts. The fullness of the Holy Spirit does not at all depend on Charismatic doctrine, or even a Biblical doctrine of the gifts of the Spirit. Those gifts are secondary to the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you can start a thread on the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" and the "fulness of the Holy Spirit". I can not say what all Charismatics believe about the Holy Spirit...I can only share what I have learned and experienced. Raised and still in a Baptist church...but believe the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to the church on the day of Pentecost and as far as I can read...is still here!

If you want experience, I can relate experience of the great power of God without the Charismatic doctrine. My grandfather saw great revivals with hundreds, even thousands saved, including prostitutes and drunkards and many others. My Mom's cousin Pete has mass evangelism meetings in many countries with many thousands attending and hundreds saved (but he keeps a sort of low profile). My friend Dr. T. in a Muslim land sees dozens baptized at one time, and has 2000 at time taking Bible correspondence courses. When I preached for him 800 heard me, and the national pastor baptized 48 who had already been saved. I could give many, many other illustrations.

That is great! Many have come to the cross through great evangalism! But what is missing in most churches is after we get them to the cross (salvation)we need to teach them how to walk in the Power of the resurrected Lord!

In my own tiny ministry in this Gospel resistant land, I have seen a drug addict (now in Heaven but used of God), mentally ill people, a yakuza saved (Japanese mafia, baptized and growing in the Lord) and others. And all of this is because of God's Holy Spirit at work, not Charismatic doctrine or practice.

Never denied this! See my comment above!

I have a library of at least 20 books on the Holy Spirit, including a few by Charismatics. I've studied the issue out deeply in the Word of God and these books. Believe me, Charismatic doctrine is a newcomer to the field. Many who do not speak in tongues and do not follow other Charismatic doctrine have seen God do great things and written wonderfully about it: John R. Rice, Lee Roberson, H. A. Ironside, Bob Jones Sr., and others before the Charismatic movement: S. D. Gordon, R. A. Torrey, James H. McConkey, A. J. Gordon and many others. The Charismatics are actually late comers to this issue!

No, not late comers! They have been here throughout history!
If you search out commentaries printed prior to the 20th century, you will search in vain for a clearly stated cessationist view. The supernatural gifts and miraculous things waned during the Middle Ages, but so did the doctrine of justification by faith. I believe the church lost a lot during Dark ages. But to say that God no longer operates today by pointing to the dry spiritual season of the Middle Ages is to give validity to that time of spiritual decline. However, the Reformation brought a revovery of truth. During the dark time some of the fringe groups tried to maintain NT Christianity. The church at Rome often viewed those groups as heretics. Baptist find their roots among those fringe groups.

Oh, yes, and that about tongues? Why are we standing so straight and tall against them? Tongues are the linchpin of the whole Charismatic doctrine. They are the trigger that leads people into the movement, as apparently happened with awaken. If tongues are not right, the rest is false--and false it is.

No, again you are wrong...I have never said the rest is falsehood! That is why I am still in a Baptist church! They have a lot of truth! Just because I believe that the gifts are still here does not mean what you are implying here.

Again, tongues breed pride, and the tongues speakers (the ones I've met) usually look down on the rest of us. As one church history scholar wrote, "Spirit movements could breed pride just as they provided distance for their adherents. If the second blessing was a special gift, and Baptism in the Holy Spirit was an extraordinary experience, was it not inevitable that the less Spirit-blessed Christians would be looked down on?" ("Pentecostalism in American Piety and Practice," by Martin Marty in Aspects of Pentecostal-Charismatic Origins, ed. Vinson Synan--a Charismatic--on p. 227). I think we've seen that pride here on the BB.

Sorry if I come across prideful...I do not mean to! I do feel very strong about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and if in defending my belief I have come across prideful..again, I am sorry! My heart is to share this so others can walk in it...just as I want them to come to the cross! I also want them to live the abundant life..the life of Power in the Holy Spirit!

 

[awaken]

Exactly. So tongues can be different languages.


Because that's what scripture says in 1 Cor 14:22; tongues are for a sign to the unbeliever.

Of course; but the question is why were they granted the power to speak in tongues they didn't know themselves, but were known by others?


Right; it sure got their attention, didn't it?


As I mentioned above, and what Paul emphasizes in 1 Cor 14, the question is what is the purpose of tongues. In Acts 2, the purpose wasn't to praise God; it was to draw others to hear the gospel. In 1 Cor 14:22, Paul makes it absolutely clear, just as you have, that believers don't need other tongues; but that they're a sign to unbelievers, to draw them so they may hear the gospel. And what more powerful way to draw an unbeliever is there than for that unbeliever to hear you speaking in their native tongue, when they know there's no way you should be able to speak their language?

THis I can agree with!

But you can not ignore that the ones at Pentecost, Cornelius house were magnifying God, praising God, speaking to God! Not preaching.

Also if you look close at Chapter 19 when Paul came across those those that believed, but were not baptized in the name of Jesus (by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, because only Jesus can baptize in the Holy Spirit) The spake with tongues AND prophesied. Prophesy can be used to proclaim the gospel. But tongues here are the same as Acts 2 and Acts 10. The tongues are all the same for the same purpose...they are speaking to God! Prophesy here was speaking to the people.

Tongues is a language and it does get the attention of the ones hearing in their own language. But I have also seen it done where and unbeliever is in the assembly and tongues and interpretaion given. He himself did not understand until the interpretation was given, but it moved him to respond to God. He still had to be instructed on how to give his life to God! But the tongues got his attention!

 

[Don]

I have to disagree, because you appear to be steadfast on the point that the purpose of tongues is "to speak to God." That directly contradicts what scripture tells us. I'll point it out again: 1 Cor 14:22, Paul tells us what the purpose of tongues is -- a sign for the unbeliever. Anyone who uses tongues in any other fashion is not using the gift according to scripture.

You mention a couple of other chapters in Acts; these, too, bear out what I'm saying because all of these were public, and thus, publicly witnessed.

Finally, remember what you yourself have written here: in Acts 2, everyone who heard them speak in tongues understood them to be speaking of the wonderful works of God. If there are those that are "speaking in tongues," but are being interpreted as giving reassurances, or warnings, or something other than speaking about the works of God--in essence, using tongues to "edify the believers" when scripture is clear that tongues are not for the believers--then one *must* consider carefully where the source is coming from. Remember, Jesus said that there will be many who say"Lord, Lord"; but He will never know them.

 

[awaken]

I have to disagree, because you appear to be steadfast on the point that the purpose of tongues is "to speak to God." That directly contradicts what scripture tells us. I'll point it out again: 1 Cor 14:22, Paul tells us what the purpose of tongues is -- a sign for the unbeliever. Anyone who uses tongues in any other fashion is not using the gift according to scripture.

You mention a couple of other chapters in Acts; these, too, bear out what I'm saying because all of these were public, and thus, publicly witnessed.

Finally, remember what you yourself have written here: in Acts 2, everyone who heard them speak in tongues understood them to be speaking of the wonderful works of God. If there are those that are "speaking in tongues," but are being interpreted as giving reassurances, or warnings, or something other than speaking about the works of God--in essence, using tongues to "edify the believers" when scripture is clear that tongues are not for the believers--then one *must* consider carefully where the source is coming from. Remember, Jesus said that there will be many who say"Lord, Lord"; but He will never know them.

Ok, then we disagree! Because I do not believe they are for a SIGN to the believer..the believer does not need a sign.

Answer this...Who were the unbelievers in Acts 10?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Just A Point...

That is great! Many have come to the cross through great evangalism! But what is missing in most churches is after we get them to the cross (salvation)we need to teach them how to walk in the Power of the resurrected Lord!

Bro.Awaken...I have asked all these questions and prayed to God in days past asking for these gifts (before I learned better of them) believing that God would indeed impart them to me if it was His will and for His Glory. In short....he did NOT impart any of those sign gifts to me. I wanted the truth and sought it for His sake and glory....and He gave it to me. He also gave me (thankfully) the gift of discernment so I would not be led away in error. I am humbly thankful for that...and I pray the same for you.

Now,that said, I believe that the sign gifts have ceased in our generation due to the fact that we have the FINISHED and completed 66 books of the Bible and the proliferation of spoken(via radio,internet,TV,etc.) AND printed copies of it available throughout most of the known world. In 1 Cor.13:8 Paul declared under inspiration that tongues would cease and that charity/(love) would never fail. That (love)is the gift that clearly testifies to the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of any true believer. I draw your attention to the 5th chapter of Galatians to the passage beginning in verse 16 and continuing through verse26. This is the clearest passage in the Bible about the presence (or not) of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. The attributes (fruit) of the Spirit's presence in our lives are not taught or learned behaviour (in my opinion) but rather, they are IMPARTED to every believer who will surrender His life to the Lord Jesus Christ. Knowing somewhat about MYSELF and what I am like and capable of....I would be the first one to register surprise if I was ever told I exhibited ANY of these fruits or attributes of our God and Saviour and His precious Spirit. I pray that each of us in Christ may one day come to the place where the world around us sees Christ in us. If they do,then the things listed in Gal.5:22-24 are what they will see. I don't believe it will be tongues (in our day). If we would walk in the POWER of God's Spirit that is what the world (and our brothers and sisters in Christ) would see! Would to God that it would be true of us all.

Bro.Greg:thumbsup: