Were the tongues the same?

[awaken]

Wrong, for two reasons: 1) an unbeliever would not know--or care--if they were magnifying God unless they understood what was being said; 2) they clearly identified their own languages, so obviously someone told someone else "they're magnifying God in my language."

vs. 11 .."...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God"
Sounds like they heard them to me and understood!

You capitalized the "s" in Spirit, so I assume you mean the Holy Spirit. This doesn't make any sense. It CAN'T make any sense if you believe in the Trinity. If you do, then the Spirit is God. What you just said is that God prays to Himself. Why would the Spirit pray to Himself?

Why did Jesus pray to God?

Secondly, there is no scriptural evidence to support the claim that tongues are a "spirit language."

The Spirit gave the utterance! They were speaking to God.

[/quote]Thirdly, please re-read 1 Cor 12-14. Tongues are not the gift for edification. Edification is clearly identified as being done with the gift of prophesying.[/QUOTE] Tongues builds up the believer! But in the assembly tongues + interpretation does edify the church.

 

[Don]

vs. 11 .."...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God"
Sounds like they heard them to me and understood!

Which is interpretation, because they were able to tell each other that they heard them speaking in their own languages, and what it was they were saying in those languages.

Why did Jesus pray to God?

Because He was in the flesh. He prayed directly to God Himself, with no others assisting. Why would the Holy Spirit have to pray through us?

The Spirit gave the utterance! They were speaking to God.

I assume this is responding to "no spirit language." The Holy Spirit gave them the utterance in Acts 2--in languages understood by those present. Throughout the scripture, both Old and New Testaments, we find record of angels and God speaking to men in languages understood by those men. There is no scriptural evidence of a "spirit" or "spiritual" language.

Tongues builds up the believer! But in the assembly tongues + interpretation does edify the church.

Scripture gives many references on how to build ourselves up; but nowhere in scripture do we find any of those references mentioning speaking in tongues. Further, the way you've just described tongues is a selfish gift; whereas 1 Cor 12 speaks of all gifts being used harmoniously and for the edification of the body.

 

[awaken]

Which is interpretation, because they were able to tell each other that they heard them speaking in their own languages, and what it was they were saying in those languages.

So if I hear you teach or preach in English, I am interpreting?
Interpretation of tongues is the supernatural showing forth by the Spirit the meaning of an utterance in other tongues. It is not translation of tongues; it is the interpretation of tongues.

Because He was in the flesh. He prayed directly to God Himself, with no others assisting. Why would the Holy Spirit have to pray through us?

Because he knows the perfect will of God!

I assume this is responding to "no spirit language." The Holy Spirit gave them the utterance in Acts 2--in languages understood by those present. Throughout the scripture, both Old and New Testaments, we find record of angels and God speaking to men in languages understood by those men. There is no scriptural evidence of a "spirit" or "spiritual" language.

Anything that the Spirit does is spiritual.

Scripture gives many references on how to build ourselves up; but nowhere in scripture do we find any of those references mentioning speaking in tongues. Further, the way you've just described tongues is a selfish gift; whereas 1 Cor 12 speaks of all gifts being used harmoniously and for the edification of the body.

NO, you make it selfish!
IF I am a member of the choir and I practice at home singing, is that selfish? Doesn't it help the choir as a whole if I work on my singing?

If I build my spirit up by praying in the spirit, then I will help and edify the body!

 

[Don]

So if I hear you teach or preach in English, I am interpreting?
Interpretation of tongues is the supernatural showing forth by the Spirit the meaning of an utterance in other tongues. It is not translation of tongues; it is the interpretation of tongues.

"Translate" and "interpret" are synonyms.

Because he knows the perfect will of God!

That doesn't answer the question. He knows the perfect will of God; so why does He need to pray through us?

Anything that the Spirit does is spiritual.

That was avoiding what I said: there is NO scriptural evidence of a "spiritual" or "spirit" language. Praying in the spirit does not mean we take on some unknown language or state of existence.

NO, you make it selfish!
IF I am a member of the choir and I practice at home singing, is that selfish? Doesn't it help the choir as a whole if I work on my singing?

Poor analogy, and here's why:

If I build my spirit up by praying in the spirit, then I will help and edify the body!

How can you build up your spirit (edify yourself) if you have no idea what you're saying? You can practice singing, but you have full knowledge of every note and every word, and you take back every note and every word for the edification of others. By your own previous admissions, when you pray "in the spirit," you don't have an interpreter, and you have no idea what's been said. Thus, as Paul said, you edify only yourself--and that's why it's "selfish."

 

[awaken]

"Translate" and "interpret" are synonyms.

THe preacher is preaching English and I speak English...sitting on a pew at church I am interpreting the message? I do nt think so! I am understanding in my own language!

That doesn't answer the question. He knows the perfect will of God; so why does He need to pray through us?

With that kind of reasoning....why do you pray in your understanding, He already knows what you need or going to pray?

That was avoiding what I said: there is NO scriptural evidence of a "spiritual" or "spirit" language. Praying in the spirit does not mean we take on some unknown language or state of existence.

If I am speaking in a language I have never learned...it is not of my intellect! It is of the Spirit! The Spirit gives the utterance!


[/quote]Poor analogy, and here's why:

How can you build up your spirit (edify yourself) if you have no idea what you're saying? You can practice singing, but you have full knowledge of every note and every word, and you take back every note and every word for the edification of others. By your own previous admissions, when you pray "in the spirit," you don't have an interpreter, and you have no idea what's been said. Thus, as Paul said, you edify only yourself--and that's why it's "selfish."[/QUOTE] He tells us to pray for the interpretation in vs. 13 of chapter 14.
I can not explain this where you will understand it! Just like you can not explain the journey of ones salvation! You have to experience it for your self!

THe Bible says it edifys the one speaking (praising God, magnifying God) in a language that you do not know! vs. 4! In Jude it tells you to build yourself up praying in the Holy Ghost!

He explains two kinds of praying in chapter 14...praying in tongues..pray with understanding!

 

[Don]

THe preacher is preaching English and I speak English...sitting on a pew at church I am interpreting the message? I do nt think so! I am understanding in my own language!

But in Acts 2, a Parthian heard them speak in his language; while a Mede heard them speak in his language; and so on. How did the Mede know that the Partian heard them speaking in his tongue? Because the Partian told them he heard them speaking in his tongue, just as the Mede told them he heard them speaking in his tongue, and so on. And they all agreed that they heard them magnifying God. Thus, you have a clear-cut example of interpretation (also known as translation).

With that kind of reasoning....why do you pray in your understanding, He already knows what you need or going to pray?

You and I are told to pray unceasing. Show me where that applies to the Holy Spirit (God).

If I am speaking in a language I have never learned...it is not of my intellect! It is of the Spirit! The Spirit gives the utterance!

That's correct. But my comment was about a spiritual or spirit language.

He tells us to pray for the interpretation in vs. 13 of chapter 14.
I can not explain this where you will understand it! Just like you can not explain the journey of ones salvation! You have to experience it for your self!

Your mistake here is that you're taking a message that was meant to rebuke the Corinthians for something they were doing wrong, and trying to apply it to how to do it correctly. Paul doesn't tell us to pray for interpretation; he tells us that if we pray in a language no one understands, then we should also pray for interpretation so that there may be understanding. His whole emphasis in 1 Corinthians, much less 1 Cor 14, was to correct error.

THe Bible says it edifys the one speaking (praising God, magnifying God) in a language that you do not know! vs. 4!

No. The passage is about better gifts, and using those gifts for the edification of the church. Look at the very next verse: "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth." The passage does NOT say we should be seeking the edification of ourselves; it says we should be seeking the edification of the church.

In Jude it tells you to build yourself up praying in the Holy Ghost!

And this is supposed to prove what?

He explains two kinds of praying in chapter 14...praying in tongues..pray with understanding!

No, he doesn't. He identifies that people are using a spiritual gift incorrectly. Again, you're trying to justify doing something that the Corinthians were being rebuked for doing wrong; and you're taking pieces of it and trying to make a doctrine.

Prophesy, brother. Preach to all who will listen, and do it with the power of God. That is the better gift that Paul told the Corinthians to strive for.

 

[awaken]

But in Acts 2, a Parthian heard them speak in his language; while a Mede heard them speak in his language; and so on. How did the Mede know that the Partian heard them speaking in his tongue? Because the Partian told them he heard them speaking in his tongue, just as the Mede told them he heard them speaking in his tongue, and so on. And they all agreed that they heard them magnifying God. Thus, you have a clear-cut example of interpretation (also known as translation).

Take a close look at the crowd which had gathered in that passage. These were Jews from other nations who were in Jerusalem during the festival of Pentecost, and they were able to speak to one another in a common language because they said to each other, "how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?" Many commentaries suggest that these Jews all spoke Greek (the common language of the time), although Hebrew is another strong possibility. These Jews were living in Jerusalem for some period of time and they all knew a common language, and they were able to speak to each other and understand each other. Peter stood up an spoke to the whole crowd and they all understood.

You are giving credit to the unbelievers for manifesting the Holy Spirit. Interpretation of tongues is supernatural. How can unbeliever manifest the Holy Spirit. They understood in their own language the 120 praising and magnifying God.

You and I are told to pray unceasing. Show me where that applies to the Holy Spirit (God).

We are to live by the Spirit (led by the Spirit), we are to pray in the Spirit. It is easier to pray in the Spirit without ceasing vs. your own understanding. I can only pray so long in my understanding...but I have prayed hours in the spirit!

That's correct. But my comment was about a spiritual or spirit language.

I am not sure what you are implying about a spiritual language. I speak in a language I do not understand, this can only be done supernatual...it can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Your mistake here is that you're taking a message that was meant to rebuke the Corinthians for something they were doing wrong, and trying to apply it to how to do it correctly. Paul doesn't tell us to pray for interpretation; he tells us that if we pray in a language no one understands, then we should also pray for interpretation so that there may be understanding. His whole emphasis in 1 Corinthians, much less 1 Cor 14, was to correct error.

Error on how not to do it in the assembly. He is not saying YOU CAN NOT DO IT!

No. The passage is about better gifts, and using those gifts for the edification of the church. Look at the very next verse: "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth." The passage does NOT say we should be seeking the edification of ourselves; it says we should be seeking the edification of the church.

You forgot UNLESS there is an interpretation. I will agree that tongues should be the least gift used in the church. Paul even said he would rather speak in everyones own understanding. Yet, He sais he spoke in tongues more than all! He said that we give thanks well in tongues. He is not forbidding tongues...just in the church to use it to edify the whole church! That would be the selfish part! In a church setting where only you are being edified!

And this is supposed to prove what?

Do you even read my post? Praying in the spirit =praying in tongues! Jude 20 and Cor. 14:2 both say that the purpose of tongues is to edify youself..build your spirit up! Not to mention Eph.!

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (Ephesians 6:18)

"But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." (Jude 1:20)

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." (1 Corinthians 14:4)

"So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1 Corinthians 14:15) TWO TYPES OF PRAYER MENTIONED HERE!

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)

No, he doesn't. He identifies that people are using a spiritual gift incorrectly. Again, you're trying to justify doing something that the Corinthians were being rebuked for doing wrong; and you're taking pieces of it and trying to make a doctrine.

He is rebuking how it is done in the church! When a person prays to God in the Spirit, no-one can understand what he is saying. Therefore, if a person prays out loud in tongues in front of the whole congregation, then no-one in the congregation will receive any benefit from it because they can't understand what he is saying. For this reason, Paul said in the following passages that people should be considerate and take turns when they publicly speak in tongues, and if no interpretation comes forth then the speaker should sit down and continue praying in the Spirit quietly.

If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." (1 Corinthians 14:28)

Prophesy, brother. Preach to all who will listen, and do it with the power of God. That is the better gift that Paul told the Corinthians to strive for.

But he also said...

"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5)

Paul wanted everyone to speak in tongues. Why? Because it edifies us when we speak in tongues. There is a personal benefit that we receive when we pray in tongues (the private form of tongues), as Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 14:4. All Christians, even in modern times, benefit from praying in the Spirit, and that's why the Bible tells us to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions" (Ephesians 6:18).

Paul also said that when we speak in tongues to a church congregation (using the public form of tongues, i.e. the "gift" of tongues) and we interpret what was said (using the gift of interpretation), this is equivalent to prophesying. Speaking in the gift of tongues and then giving the interpretation results in the same benefit and edification for the church congregation as the gift of prophecy does, according to the verse above.

In this verse Paul has fully endorsed both the private and the public forms of tongues, as long as they are used properly.

 

[Don]

Well, we're at an impasse. You reject what I say, and I reject what you say. Don't think we can go anywhere else on this.

 

[awaken]

Well, we're at an impasse. You reject what I say, and I reject what you say. Don't think we can go anywhere else on this.

I am feeling the same way! I wish you well and am not offended by any of our debates!

 

[DHK]

Think carefully.
I am a missionary. I go to a foreign nation. Because I speak English I need an interpreter to translate my English into the language of the nation. If God gave me the gift of tongues (languages) then I wouldn't need an interpreter. Correct? I would be able to speak and understand in that language and everyone there would be able to understand me. There would be no need for an interpreter.

Now go back to Corinth. Corinth was in Greece. Greek was the universal language of the day. Eveyone knew Greek. It was the world-wide international language. All knew it.
First, then, one must consider why was there even a need to speak in another language if not just to show off that they had an ability that others did not have that made them look more spiritual. It was a carnal gift to some extent, or they were using it in a carnal way. It was the least of all the gifts (1Cor.12:28).
In reality, since all knew Greek, it wasn't really needed. Greek was the universal language.

Perhaps there might have been some from Spain that showed up in their congregation. Perhaps for their sake someone would have the gift of tongues or languages and the message would be given in Spanish for the sake of those few. But for the greater audience it still must be interpreted into Greek. Otherwise there would only be confusion and chaos. No one would be edified except a few Spanish speaking people who did not know Greek.

But the rule was that whenever one spoke in tongues an interpreter must be present to interpret. Otherwise the tongue-speaker had to sit down and keep quiet. He could not speak in tongues at all. He could not exercise his gift. He had to be silent if there was no interpretation. Edification and understanding were key.

1Cor.12:28 begins this way: "In the church there are..." The gifts were given to the church. There is no prayer language. There is no gift given outside of the church. All of the gifts were given to the church.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Of Course Not

Well, we're at an impasse. You reject what I say, and I reject what you say. Don't think we can go anywhere else on this.

Don...you are absolutely correct....I once tried (passionately and according to sound principles of scriptural interpretation...as I look back on it now) to argue this very issue with a dear Christian brother I worked with. He was a sincere (and I believe saved) proponent of this very kind of doctrine but he was so hung up on his "experience" and the sense of personal euphoria that he enjoyed in it that he just could not understand ANY sound scriptural truth about it. The sad thing is that we know that the REAL evidence of the presence and power of the precious Holy Spirit is rooted in the presence and evidence of the same of the fruit of the Holy Spirit as revealed in Galatians chapter 5 and verses 16,22,23 & 24. I think we can also look at 1 Corinthians 13 as another good source of that same evidence. The sad thing about my friend (I'll call him Dale)is that he exhibited few of the evidences found in the scriptures listed above but he thought (and said so) that his "experience" was ample evidence of the "fullness" of the Holy Spirit in his Christian walk. I knew both he and his family...and can tell you that they were all a very carnal bunch by even the loosest of standards at that time (this happened back in the late 70's). I do believe that Dale finally "saw the light" and came out of that kind of doctrine,teaching, and fellowship later on but his family did not fare so well. (although I'm sure you couldn't blame all of that on THIS issue) Carnality in general is just a matter of sin....and that is the root problem of ALL our other problems in the flesh..amen?

I'm afraid that our dear friend and brother Awaken has been biten by this same bug and hooked in this very snare. We live in a generation that is sorely infected by the "if it feels good,do it...it must be right" bug. That's the very thing that drives most of the charismaniacs...oooops...charismatics:smilewinkgrin: in our day and age. I'm sure he won't appreciate what I just said but time will tell where his adherence to this kind of theology or doctrine will lead him spiritually. I'm sure that those of us who can see the "other side" of this already know that answer so we must honestly agree to pray for him....not just criticize him. Only the Lord can open peoples eyes so that they can find real truth..amen? I can attest to one thing in my own spiritual life for sure....that the cost of sin is high...and it is usually grounded and founded in PRIDE. Just kinda goes all the way back to the garden of Eden, doesn't it?

Praying (and I just did)
Bro.Gregraying:

 

[awaken]

Think carefully.
I am a missionary. I go to a foreign nation. Because I speak English I need an interpreter to translate my English into the language of the nation. If God gave me the gift of tongues (languages) then I wouldn't need an interpreter. Correct? I would be able to speak and understand in that language and everyone there would be able to understand me. There would be no need for an interpreter.

Now go back to Corinth. Corinth was in Greece. Greek was the universal language of the day. Eveyone knew Greek. It was the world-wide international language. All knew it.
First, then, one must consider why was there even a need to speak in another language if not just to show off that they had an ability that others did not have that made them look more spiritual. It was a carnal gift to some extent, or they were using it in a carnal way. It was the least of all the gifts (1Cor.12:28).
In reality, since all knew Greek, it wasn't really needed. Greek was the universal language.

Perhaps there might have been some from Spain that showed up in their congregation. Perhaps for their sake someone would have the gift of tongues or languages and the message would be given in Spanish for the sake of those few. But for the greater audience it still must be interpreted into Greek. Otherwise there would only be confusion and chaos. No one would be edified except a few Spanish speaking people who did not know Greek.

But the rule was that whenever one spoke in tongues an interpreter must be present to interpret. Otherwise the tongue-speaker had to sit down and keep quiet. He could not speak in tongues at all. He could not exercise his gift. He had to be silent if there was no interpretation. Edification and understanding were key.

1Cor.12:28 begins this way: "In the church there are..." The gifts were given to the church. There is no prayer language. There is no gift given outside of the church. All of the gifts were given to the church.

THe only think I saw in there that could be backed up by scripture was what I underlined! Everything else was your opinion about tongues!

 

[awaken]

Don...you are absolutely correct....I once tried (passionately and according to sound principles of scriptural interpretation...as I look back on it now) to argue this very issue with a dear Christian brother I worked with. He was a sincere (and I believe saved) proponent of this very kind of doctrine but he was so hung up on his "experience" and the sense of personal euphoria that he enjoyed in it that he just could not understand ANY sound scriptural truth about it. The sad thing is that we know that the REAL evidence of the presence and power of the precious Holy Spirit is rooted in the presence and evidence of the same of the fruit of the Holy Spirit as revealed in Galatians chapter 5 and verses 16,22,23 & 24. I think we can also look at 1 Corinthians 13 as another good source of that same evidence. The sad thing about my friend (I'll call him Dale)is that he exhibited few of the evidences found in the scriptures listed above but he thought (and said so) that his "experience" was ample evidence of the "fullness" of the Holy Spirit in his Christian walk. I knew both he and his family...and can tell you that they were all a very carnal bunch by even the loosest of standards at that time (this happened back in the late 70's). I do believe that Dale finally "saw the light" and came out of that kind of doctrine,teaching, and fellowship later on but his family did not fare so well. (although I'm sure you couldn't blame all of that on THIS issue) Carnality in general is just a matter of sin....and that is the root problem of ALL our other problems in the flesh..amen?

I'm afraid that our dear friend and brother Awaken has been biten by this same bug and hooked in this very snare. We live in a generation that is sorely infected by the "if it feels good,do it...it must be right" bug. That's the very thing that drives most of the charismaniacs...oooops...charismatics:smilewinkgrin: in our day and age. I'm sure he won't appreciate what I just said but time will tell where his adherence to this kind of theology or doctrine will lead him spiritually. I'm sure that those of us who can see the "other side" of this already know that answer so we must honestly agree to pray for him....not just criticize him. Only the Lord can open peoples eyes so that they can find real truth..amen? I can attest to one thing in my own spiritual life for sure....that the cost of sin is high...and it is usually grounded and founded in PRIDE. Just kinda goes all the way back to the garden of Eden, doesn't it?

Praying (and I just did)
Bro.Gregraying:

Well, I am not offended by your comments. I just wish you would have addressed the scriptures. I have found that most that believe the manifestations of the Spirit have passed can not back it up with scriptures!