Were theElect always Sheeps, and not Goats at all?

[Yeshua1]

if all of us were born spiritual dead in Adam, and as such in the flesh and not the people of God, were we not at that goats, at least until reborn from above?

 

[kyredneck]

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Ro 9

Were vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ever vessels of wrath? No:

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9

 

[Yeshua1]

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Ro 9

Were vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ever vessels of wrath? No:

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9

Were the elect ever in a lost spiritual state then? if yes, had to be goats at that time, as dead in sin, and not in a relationship with God!

 

[Jerome]

Ephesians 2!

We "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"


John Owen, Of Communion with God the Father (1657) p. 279:

"You know whose Children we are by nature; children of Satan, and of the curse, or of wrath. By the Spirit we are put into another capacity, and are Adopted to be the children of God, inasmuch as by receiving the spirit of our Father, we become the children of our Father. Thence is he called [Rom. 8] v. 15. the Spirit of Adoption."

William Perkins, A Golden Chaine (Cambridge: John Legate, 1600), p. 441:

"regeneration, whereby a man of a limb of the devil is made a member of Christ, and of a child of Satan (whom every one of us by nature do as lively resemble as any man doth his own parent) is made the child of God."

 

[church mouse guy]

I myself was born a kid (baby goat). As Rodney Dangerfield said, I know I am ugly, the doctor slapped me and I found out later that the nurse got in a few good licks, too. Now the Methodist are going to throw us old folks out to make room for paying customers.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ephesians 2!

We "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"


John Owen, Of Communion with God the Father (1657) p. 279:

"You know whose Children we are by nature; children of Satan, and of the curse, or of wrath. By the Spirit we are put into another capacity, and are Adopted to be the children of God, inasmuch as by receiving the spirit of our Father, we become the children of our Father. Thence is he called [Rom. 8] v. 15. the Spirit of Adoption."

William Perkins, A Golden Chaine (Cambridge: John Legate, 1600), p. 441:

"regeneration, whereby a man of a limb of the devil is made a member of Christ, and of a child of Satan (whom every one of us by nature do as lively resemble as any man doth his own parent) is made the child of God."

At least those 2 seemed to be agreeing with me on this!

 

[Jerome]

Ephesians 2!

We "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"


Puritan Favorites ❧ Thomas Adams (1583-1652) ❧ Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

Vol. I, Sermon XXII, p. 415:

"Pray....that those who are yet goats may become sheep, and be brought into one fold, under one shepherd. Whiles they continue weeds there is small hope. Yet Paul was once a tare, who after proved good wheat, and is now in the garner of heaven."

 

[George Antonios]

Were vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ever vessels of wrath? No:

Of course! Paul himself says so!
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course! Paul himself says so!
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

All saved sheep started out as goats!

 

[Van]

Yet another thread built on unbiblical assertions. Are the individuals born as one of mankind, goats? Nope.

No verse supports that assertion.

All mankind starts out as "the sheep" for all have gone astray and are without a shepherd.

The lost are like sheep without a shepherd.

When we die physically, the Lord separates the saved from the lost, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. No verse refers to the lost as goats.

Mat 25:32
“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;


Mat 25:33
and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another thread built on unbiblical assertions. Are the individuals born as one of mankind, goats? Nope.

No verse supports that assertion.

All mankind starts out as "the sheep" for all have gone astray and are without a shepherd.

The lost are like sheep without a shepherd.

When we die physically, the Lord separates the saved from the lost, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. No verse refers to the lost as goats.

Mat 25:32
“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;


Mat 25:33
and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

lost sinners are called goats, and the saved are called sheep, and ALL of us were before salvation in the goat state!

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes. In I John the term propitiation is used. It means that God is no longer mad at us ie the removal of wrath

 

[Reformed1689]

All mankind starts out as "the sheep" for all have gone astray and are without a shepherd.

The lost are like sheep without a shepherd.

This is horrible exegesis. This is a comparison to show what they are like. This is not the same thing as the sheep being discussed in John's Gospel.

 

[church mouse guy]

Yes. In I John the term propitiation is used. It means that God is no longer mad at us ie the removal of wrath

A favorite verse of Episcopalians:

1 John 2:1-2 (KJV) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

 

[Van]

lost sinners are called goats, and the saved are called sheep, and ALL of us were before salvation in the goat state!

No scripture ever calls the lost goats. Full Stop

 

[Reformed1689]

No scripture ever calls the lost goats. Full Stop

Van you yourself quoted a passage that does.

Yet another thread built on unbiblical assertions. Are the individuals born as one of mankind, goats? Nope.

No verse supports that assertion.

All mankind starts out as "the sheep" for all have gone astray and are without a shepherd.

The lost are like sheep without a shepherd.

When we die physically, the Lord separates the saved from the lost, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. No verse refers to the lost as goats.

Mat 25:32
“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;


Mat 25:33
and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

So the saved are sheep because Scripture says it is, but the lost, which are clearly called goats here, are not?

 

[Van]

This is horrible exegesis. This is a comparison to show what they are like. This is not the same thing as the sheep being discussed in John's Gospel.

This is horrible nonsense. The illustration of Jesus separating the saved from the lost is "like" when a shepherd separates actual sheep and actual goats.

 

[Van]

Van you yourself quoted a passage that does.
So the saved are sheep because Scripture says it is, but the lost, which are clearly called goats here, are not?

Note the illustration says the separation is like a shepherd separating sheep and goats, it does not call the lost goats. The assertion is utter nonsense.

 

[Reformed1689]

Note the illustration says the separation is like a shepherd separating sheep and goats, it does not call the lost goats. The assertion is utter nonsense.

Now you are splitting hairs here.

 

[Van]

Now you are splitting hairs here.

Yet another post defaming me and avoiding the topic, no where is scripture does the Word of God call the lost goats. We start out as sheep who have gone astray, and we become His sheep when we enter the fold through Him.