Were there that many

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Darn shame Jesus wasn't more specific, because we'd probably find out we're both right! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry there is only one truth, though alot of people would like to think there could be more than one truth, it's just not so. And if I read my Bible correctly you are teaching untruth. And it is a darn shame that you can't, out of all the Bible see where you err.

 

How easy is it to be a Baptist Minister? If I get three friends together and we call ourselves a Baptist Church, and they call me a Minister, would I be? Or, suppose that I skip the friends and just call myself a Baptist Minister...just because I say so. A Baptist Minister looking for a church, but a Baptist minister nonetheless. Is it really that easy?

So, then, all on this board who are not Baptist ministers are not simply because they have not said so.

Hey...what if I call YOU a Baptist minister, but YOU claim that you're not. Can I make you one just by saying that you are?

 

Embarassed for the Christians who can't defend the truth on a biblical basis but use unfounded personal attacks.....especially when they don't even do their homework first. The only thing you need to be arguing against here is someone going/teaching against Scripture. What, that isn't ENOUGH?
Aye.
Gina

 

I for one have not made personal attacks on Josh. I have merely stated what scripture says about what he believes and what the Bible calls people like that. As for Jim, he did not make a personal attack on him either, he merely was expressing how easy it is for me you or anyone to be called a baptist minister.
And for Josh, I don't care if pope John Paul came down and ordained you, I do not believ you are a God called minister because you stand at opposite with His Word.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Embarassed for the Christians who can't defend the truth on a biblical basis but use unfounded personal attacks.....especially when they don't even do their homework first. The only thing you need to be arguing against here is someone going/teaching against Scripture. What, that isn't ENOUGH?
Aye.
Gina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, Gina, sorry if we embarrassed you. So, specifically, what do you think of the qualifications for being a "Baptist Minister" of one who says that homosexuality is a sin and that God is (or might be) a woman?

Joshua is a "nice guy" and his spirit on this board is quite admirable, my problem is with his beliefs.

 

Jim,

I know you asked Gina and not me, but may I answer anyway?

First of all, I just want to say that while I respect Josh's opinion, I disagree strongly with him.

On the first point, whether or not homosexuality is a sin isn't an essential of the faith so if he wants to believe that, then we should allow him the lattitude to believe that, even if we ourselves don't.

On the second, I tend to believe that while God is neither male nor female, the Bible addresses Him as male and uses masculine imagery when describing Him so we should regard him as "male" as well.

However, since God by His very nature, transcends sex and gender, I would allow Joshua that lattitude as well, even though I disagree with it.

Mike

 

Smoke_Eater,
So are you saying that we can call everything that God called evil, good and still be a christian? I know I am a sinner that falls short everyday, yet I don't call sin good or ok, sin is never good or ok. I we say sin is ok or good then we are calling God a liar which is heresy and therfore it is essential to our faith.
Would you call God a liar?
Isa. 5:20 "20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"


Mal.2:17 "17Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?"

God speed.

 

And again...

Mal. 3:13-15 "13Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? 14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? 15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered."

Matt. 15:8,9 "8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Eph. 5:6-11 "6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth ; ) 10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."

God speed.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

Hi, Joey,

First of all, when people talk about the "essentials of the faith", they mean things such as the nature of God, the deity of Christ and the sufficiency of His death on the cross and subsequent resurection, sola fide, sola gratis, etc.

Things such as the morality of homosexuality, infant baptism vs. immersion, speaking in tongues, etc. are generally considered to be peripheral issues that are up for debate.

St. Augustine said, "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity."

I don't think we can call sin OK and I'm not doing that. I've been clear to state my opinion on homosexuality. As long as we pretend that sin is OK or doesn't exsist, we can't deal with it and make things right.

What I do believe is that this is an issue on which Christians of good faith can disagree and having a different opinion about the finer points of doctrine absolutely does not preclude one from being a Christian.

Try to look at this from Joshua's view. He doesn't believe that he's going against God's word because to him, it hasn't been established that homosexuality is wrong in the first place. I believe that he would be horrified if he thought he was going against God's commandments.

So, to argue that he is deliberately going against God's word, is putting the cart before the horse.

If you want to talk to him about this, I think you'd be much better off sticking with the issue of homosexuality first.

As for me, I disagree with him but God is bigger than our disagreements.

Mike

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Excellent post Smoke_eater! And i like your Augustine quote. I am reading his Confessions right now.

UNP, Adam

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don't think we can call sin OK and I'm not doing that. I've been clear to state my opinion on homosexuality. As long as we pretend that sin is OK or doesn't exsist, we can't deal with it and make things right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's just it, I'm not asking for anyones opinion on it, but rather what God's opinion on it is. And I think that is quiet clear.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What I do believe is that this is an issue on which Christians of good faith can disagree and having a different opinion about the finer points of doctrine absolutely does not preclude one from being a Christian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is not believing what God said an essential doctrine?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Try to look at this from Joshua's view. He doesn't believe that he's going against God's word because to him, it hasn't been established that homosexuality is wrong in the first place. I believe that he would be horrified if he thought he was going against God's commandments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I guess if as long as it hasn't been established in my heart that murder, lieing, cheating stealing, adultery, idolatry and the such are wrong, then it's ok if I promote them?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So, to argue that he is deliberately going against God's word, is putting the cart before the horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You shall know them by thier fruits.

Now before you go into how much you dislike the way I attack his sin and that you don't like the way I post, let me just say that I do not propmote heresy or any of the such, I try to have a kind loving spirit but I will not waver for the sake of hurting someone's feelings. The heart needs to be cut if it is to heal. The word of God isn't there to make us feel better about ourselves but to reprove us. This isn't the only heresy that Josh has admitted to. He thinks abortion is ok also. I suppose that's up for debate also. While we sit here and debate weather it's ok for him to promote it or not he is leading someone into the false profession that it is ok if they kill (KILL) thier child. I'm sorry if it is hard for me to find compassion amongst that, but if it were a man that did not claim to know God that says something like that, Then you can work with that, but when someone who claims to know God and know His word promotes something like this then that is an etirely different story. Jesus even had more compassion on the sinners that knew they were sinners than He did on those who professed to know God. So just because you don't have the guts to stand on the word of God and reprove those that are aginst God's word, don't try to hinder someone that is willing to stand on the word of God and call it like it is.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If you want to talk to him about this, I think you'd be much better off sticking with the issue of homosexuality first. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have gave the man scripture after scripture and so has many others on this board yet he dances around them like they are mans opinion or something. (oh, that was just Paul that said that!!!)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for me, I disagree with him but God is bigger than our disagreements. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes He is, all the more reason to proclaim the word of God to him, and show him that he is against God's word.

God speed.

 

I'm sorry if my post sounds harsh, but I'm tired of people who say they love the Lord allow such garbage without saying anything.
If I was to come on here and use the Lord's name in vain, I would have so many people posting warnings and attacking me about why I shouldn't do that. Should we not the more when people promote trash like this?

God speed.

 

Smoke-eater (Mike), I want to offer this up ONLY for thought; I'm not actually getting into this conversation.

You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity"...the morality of homosexuality...generally considered to be peripheral issue...up for debate...I've been clear to state my opinion on homosexuality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For your consideration: Sin is not a "peripheral" matter. Infant baptism? Yes, I'd have to agree that it's a peripheral matter. Salvation by grace through faith? Prime matter, non-negotiable.

But sin? I don't believe sin can ever be considered a "peripheral" matter. For how can we be saved if we continue to walk in darkness?

Those that continue to sin, willfully and knowingly, will not be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, sin cannot be considered a "peripheral" matter, for the state of one's soul is in question.

The issue of homosexuality needs to be brought up again--I suggest in the Theology section--and hammered down by scripture.

And yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin, and that there are those that are continuing to engage in it without realizing that it's a sin. I also believe that there are those who are engaging in it fully knowing that it's a sin, and I believe that there are those who are engaging in it although they've been told it's a sin--but simply don't want to acknowledge.

 

Joey,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> That's just it, I'm not asking for anyone's opinion, rather what God's opinion on it is. And I think that is quite clear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's not. You specifically asked me when you said, "so are you saying..." Therefore I told you what I was saying.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Is not believing what God said an essential doctrine? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. That's not what is meant by what we commonly call "the essentials". It is assumed that you already do believe what God said.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So I guess as long as it hasn't been established in my heart that murder, lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, idolatry and the such are wrong, then it's OK if I promote them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaron, that wasn't the point. I've already said that I thought he was wrong. The point was that he is following the scripture as he understands them. Whether you believe that these things he believes are right or wrong, it's unfair to say that someone who is sincerly following their conscience in a matter of doctrine that's up for debate, anyway, is thumbing his nose at God.

There is a big difference between the level of accountability of someone who is guilty of involuntary manslaughter and someone who is guilty of first degree murder. (Sorry about that Joshua, I know that's not going to look the way that I meant it. )

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Yes He is. All the more reason to proclaim the word of God to him and to show him that he is against God's word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaron, perhaps you have missed to point of my posts.

First of all, I am confident that Joshua knows the word of God and, in my mind, his committment to Christ is not in question.

When I said that "God was bigger than our disagreements", I meant that our differences do not outweigh our similarities.

I will stand shoulder to shoulder with Joshua and support him as a Christian brother because I'm convinced that we agree on the essentials. One day, when we get to Heaven, we will ask which one of us is right. Until then, we will just agree to disagree and enjoy each others company.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Don,

Man's sinful nature and Christ's atoning work on the cross to pay for that sin are definitely essentials of the faith.

Sin is bad, no question about it. Every one of our sins is a brick in a wall that separates us from God. If we don't acknowledge them, the wall just gets bigger and bigger and we get further and further away until we can't even see God anymore (and you thought there was no spiritual depth to Touched by an Angel ).

No one is arguing that sin is good. What I am saying is that some people find the Bible to be somewhat vague when it comes to what we commonly call homosexuality. Some of the same words that are interchangeable for sodomy are also used for sex acts that are commonly practised within the marriage bed between a man and wife and are not objected to by Christians (Please don't ask me to go into them, there may be little ears listening).

I personally don't think that it's vague at all but I've heard the arguments of people who believe like Joshua and I unsderstand why they have difficulty with this issue.

Until the argument is settled, I consider it a debatable issue.

Mike

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

1 John 1:5,6 "5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

1 John 1:10 " 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
This is exactly what he does, he says it is not sin.


1 John 2:3,4 "3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Roman 1:26-32 "26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Now you tell me what these veres here means. I'll not judge his salvation, I have never once judged that. Salvation is God's. But the Bible tells me to judge the fruits and if the fruits are not of God to mark the man and have no fellowship with him.

I have said he is against God's word, which is pretty clear according to scripture.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

This kind of reminds me of a joke about a true believer named John and another man named Jim.
Jim asked John "Do you really believe everything in the Bible?"
John "Yes I do."
Jim "You really believe that Jonah was swallowed by a big fish and lived?"
John "Yes I do believe that."
Jim "But how could he have survived?"
John "I don't know, when I get to heaven I'll ask him."
Jim "Well what if Jonah isn't in heaven?"
John "Then you ask him."


It'll come to ya in a minute.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]