Were there that many

The only difficulty, Mike, is when we place importance on men's words--such as, from a book or a commentary--rather than God's Words.

The ShadowGov people that I railed against in another thread are guilty of this crime. They've taken a book, written by a man who makes no claim of being divinely inspired, and have given it more importance than the Bible itself. Many, MANY times I have "debated" with these people on basic doctrines such as "hating homosexuals" (to which I do NOT ascribe), only to be asked, "Don, have you read '_____' by _____?" To which I have always responded, no, I've read the Bible, by God.

I agree that books and commentaries can sometimes help us understand...but when those books and/or commentaries are completely opposite of what the Bible actually says, or given more importance than the word of God, then there is no argument, no discussion, no debate.

If God's Word is not the final authority, then there is no final authority.

 

Joey,

A disagreement over a secondary issue is not a "fruit". It is a secondary issue.

The Bible tells lists specifically what "fruits" are and disagreeing with the morality of homosexuality isn't on the list. You're not judging his fruits, you're judging him and that's wrong.

Joey, one of my favorite Bible teachers, Steve Brown, has a great quote that I'd like you to consider.

"One tends to show God's grace to others only to the extent that he understands the grace that he, himself, has recieved."

I've noticed in other posts made by you that you really don't try to show grace to anyone. You assume that the Bible is against things it's silent on and your attitude seems to be "my way or the highway".

Now, how about showing Joshua a little grace? That's what Jesus would do.

 

Smoke_eater,
You obviously haven't read many of my posts, because my attitude has never been my way or the highway, I know there are many here with different beliefs than I have and in the act of stating my beliefs or concerns on an issue I have come to be enlightened on a few things that after someone showing me through scripture that I was wrong. And I don't claim to know it all. I do have the attitude that it is God's way or no way, and though I know I don't hold the market on that, there are several heresies argued on on this message board of which I have been a part of, and that may be where you are getting that that is my attitude. Because in those areas we are talking about something alot more important than weather one believes in sprinkle or emmersion, which though you don't think it's an issue, I think about those people in which Josh is telling "hey it's ok if you have a same sex relationship." He is leading them astray. If it were him having a homosexual relationship and not bothering anyone else, then I could have a more loving spirit in trying to show him where he errs, but he is not, rather he is leading other people astray, and may cause many to burn in hell because of what he is teaching, and though you can sit there calmly and say there's no need to get upset. I myself think it is a tragedy. What is it were your son or your daughter that he were leading astray into thinking it's ok to do these things, homosexual relationships, abortions and such? I think then you might have a different attitude about it.
But you look at most any of my other post on other subjects, I am not judgmental nor hold an attitude that I know it all. But i do know sin when I see it and I see it here.
How are we to make disciples of men and women when we don't even have the backbone to tell them "This is wrong in the eyes of God." I have said before and I'll say again, I don't hate Josh, I pray for him, I really do I pray for him everyday, I've even got my church praying for him that he will repent and turn toward God and serve Him like God wants him to serve Him.
But I made a commitment that whenever this heresy is brought up, I'll speak out on it. And everytime someone posts to this post or any of the like about heresies, backing it up or making it seem less sinful than what it is, then I will speak out as well, showing that this is heresy in the worst kind.And that they are plainly seen as heresy in the Bible and not debatable.

God speed.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M: But I made a commitment that whenever this heresy is brought up, I'll speak out on it. And everytime someone posts to this post or any of the like about heresies, backing it up or making it seem less sinful than what it is, then I will speak out as well, showing that this is heresy in the worst kind.And that they are plainly seen as heresy in the Bible and not debatable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And God will bless you for your faithfulness Joey! Thanks for standing firm on the Bible.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Joey, by saying that you believe it's "God's way or the highway" you are, in fact, saying that it's "your way or the highway" because in many areas you cling to an understanding of God, church, and Christianity that is very much in the minority among professed believers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, this is not at all true. When I first came here I believed that the KJV Bible was the only Word of God and the others to be satan's bibles. And after much posting and listeng to reasoning through the scriptures, I have changed my mind toward that. Though I still prefer the KJV over any other translation. And I am in a straight with another part of doctrine that has to do with predestination in which I am still praying about and searching the scriptures over. So I am open to truth through scripture, I came here to learn as well as maybe teach.
And secondly, show me one doctrine that you have seen on this board that I hold to that is in the minority.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Of course, you could argue that only people who believe as you are true believers, but doesn't that seem a little convenient? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This statement is just an attack at my character because you can't give me one shred of evidence in the Bible to support the heresies that you endorse. I have never questioned your salvation, God will be the judge of that. I simply said and still say, a man that will say that sin is ok is against God's word, not because I say that but because the Bible says that.
But Josh I do pray for you. My fear is that you like the attention so much that you will keep this view simply because it keeps you in the lime light so to speak.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
Jim,

I know you asked Gina and not me, but may I answer anyway?

First of all, I just want to say that while I respect Josh's opinion, I disagree strongly with him.

On the first point, whether or not homosexuality is a sin isn't an essential of the faith so if he wants to believe that, then we should allow him the lattitude to believe that, even if we ourselves don't.

On the second, I tend to believe that while God is neither male nor female, the Bible addresses Him as male and uses masculine imagery when describing Him so we should regard him as "male" as well.

However, since God by His very nature, transcends sex and gender, I would allow Joshua that lattitude as well, even though I disagree with it.

Mike<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, thanks for the reply, I guess Gina did a hit and run on me.

I guess you could argue (as you have) that Josh's position on sodomy isn't an essential doctrine, however his twisting and ignoring and generally sitting in judgement of God's Word IS essential.

The same applies to his treatment of scripture regarding the person of God. One who pretends to pass judgement on the acccuracy of God's very clear revelation on these points is in BIG trouble, I only pray that he realizes it soon.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Joey, by saying that you believe it's "God's way or the highway" you are, in fact, saying that it's "your way or the highway" because in many areas you cling to an understanding of God, church, and Christianity that is very much in the minority among professed believers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1 John 2:4

He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Wide is the road to destruction and many are on it.

 

Pennsylvania Jim: Didn't intend to do a hit and run, didn't see any replies past Joey's after mine until today. (I post on a lot of boards, tend to lose track sometimes)
Anyhow, ya really want my view on it, here it is. "Baptist" anymore, sadly enough, seems to encompass a rather broad range of beliefs. If you have done the studying and learning and have been qualified and your denomination calls you that then wear your label and I'll call you that because it's what your label says, but that's all it is unless God himself says otherwise. Because a preacher of God represents God himself, his views and what he's given to teach in his word, and if what you teach doesn't agree with who God is and what he teaches then you're not a preacher of God. According to man, yes, according to Him, no. Doesn't matter what denomination or label ya give it, it's either of God or not.
Gina

 

Gina,

Thanks, and sorry if I didn't give you enough time to reply. You must be busy keeping up with several boards especially if you are as active there as here.

Actually I agree with you 100%, the point I am making on this thread is that just because some group agrees to call someone a "Baptist Minister" in and of itself is rather meaningless.

 

Hi, Joshua,

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Everybody wants to judge. It's just part of our nature. It makes us feel better to say, "I may be bad, but at least I'm not like that guy."

I'm no different but I think what makes me want to treat non-Christians the way I do is that I was told a long time ago that we, as Christians, are just beggers telling other beggers where we found bread.

To me, that sums up Christianity perfectly.

Mike

 

Smoke_eater,
It's not that we want to judge, but rather that we have to judge. We are not the ultimate judge, but we must judge fruits. Let me ask you. Would you put your young daughter (hypotheticly) in a class with a teacher who is a know child molester? Or is that judging the man too harshly? I know Josh is not a homosexual, but he promotes it and he promotes abortion, that is what I judge, not him inparticualr but those bad fruits that he promotes. Why aren't you a catholic? Is it because you have weighed out the doctrines and determioned that thier's is not right? Of course it is. Did you judge them too harshly? No you judge what was not right. Why don't you put your child or wife down into a den of hungry wolves? Because they will get eating, of course. Did you judge the actions of the wolves too harshly? Of course not, you are just protecting whom you love from being eating by ravishing wolves. That is what I am doing here. I love the Church that my Lord has established, and I am going to protect the babes from being devoured by the wolves of false doctrine and heresy. As much as you don't like me or the way I post, at least I don't stand by while your children are being eating up.

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

Do we need to have judges in order to uphold the law when people murder or steal and the like. How much more then should we judge and uphold spiritual things. If I muder someone, I take one life, but if I lead them into false doctrine I could lead many to hell. You tell me which is worse.

 

So many people think, well this person has a loving attitude, he is not harsh or forceful about his beliefs so just leave him alone, he's not violent. But I wonder if they ponder on the thought that satan didn't have an AK47 up to Eve's head when he beguiled her into eating the forbidden fruit. Just because someone comes in the attitude of peace doesn't mean that's what he's there for.
Something to think about.

God speed.

 

Joey,

I never said that I didn't like you. The truth is that I don't know you well enough to say either way.

What I do think is that you're not a very nice person and that you don't treat people like Jesus would.

Your analogy about child molesters doesn't work for several reasons.

The first is because, obviously, if someone were a known child molester they wouldn't be teaching children.

The second is that pedophilia is a mental illness and molestation is an act of non-consentual violence. Homosexuality is not a mental illness, except in cases where gender dysphoria may be involved and even then, the percentage of heterosexual vs. homosexual pedophiles is roughly the same.

My mother, who is a psychologist, read your post over my shoulder and showed me several studies that concluded that about 50% of pedophiles are juveniles with no homosexual tendencies and the rest are about 50/50 hetero vs. homosexuals.

Anyway, Joey, there's something much more important at stake, here.

Joey, my problem isn't with your judging, it's the criteria that you use to judge.

We're told to judge righteous judgements and to judge "fruits" but you judge the person and that's precisely what Jesus warned against.

Jesus always showed grace to the sinners that He came into contact with and you and I are commanded to do the same.

Why do you not feel the need to treat others with grace when that's the model that Jesus showed us?

http://www.keylife.org

 

1 Corinthians 5:9-13

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindlernot even to eat with such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I don't believe that Paul is contradicting Jesus. I believe Jesus is warning us not to be hypocritical. We are to admonish one another. As I posted a couple of times in this thread, Jesus says that sexual immorality seperates us from God.

 

SIGH!!!! I don't think it's a matter of judging the person, rather than the act. How many people do you know that would give up thier very life rather than to sit by and watch something they know is wrong happen? I know very few. And in fact find myself backing down from saying something when I know I'm seeing wrong-doing. Being Homosexual is WRONG! The Bible even says that it is. Love the person, hate the sin. If you REALLY have a longing for souls, you won't just stand by and let people go on sinning. You'll tell them they are in sin, and in need of Christs salvation.

Paula

 

Tuor and Paula,

Whether or not homosexuality is wrong or right isn't the issue. The Bible makes it clear that it's wrong.

What I find so frustrating is this idea among Joey and so many others here that gays are somehow les than human and that somehow they are less valuable to God than people who commit other sins.

Jesus never abused sinners of any kind, nor would He have tolerated their abuse by others.

He never looked down His nose at them.

He was sure to call sin, sin and He was quick to deal with it. He never let sin slide but, at the same time, He would never have treated them as Joey and others here do.

Jesus built relationships with sinners. He socialized with them. He listened to them. He wanted to be a part of their lives and to have them know that they had a part in His.

In short, He treated them as though they were precious treasures to God.

We should do the same.

 

I agree.

Christians have a tendency to kick the sick when they are down. In our desire to remain holy, we avoid the man who got attacked.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What I find so frustrating is this idea among Joey and so many others here that gays are somehow les than human and that somehow they are less valuable to God than people who commit other sins. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Show me one place smoke eater that I said they were less than human or less valueble to God. As a matter of fact just a few posts back I said if Josh were a homosexual, that it would be easier to witness to him with more compassion, but it is not about (the) homosexual, it is about someone who claims to be a follower of Christ that teaches that such heresies are ok. I never said one word that would even partly indicate that I thought that the person of a homosexual is less than human or less valueable to God. And why would you even put those words in my mouth to defend your defending Josh? Read my posts again.
Though homsexuality is sin so is alot of other things, I don't put them in a lower class, but someone that teaches that sin is ok, them I mark as the Bible says too. I really hope you start reading my posts rather than just adding your own thoughts in there. I say again show me one place where I have put a homosexual down other than say that it is sin. Josh is not a homosexual, he is a false teacher, and should be warned away from as far as anyone taking advice from him.

God speed.