Were there that many

Joey, I never said that's what you said, I said that it appears to be the attitude of some on these boards, including you.

There's a world of difference.

My defense of Joshua needs no defense, it's the right thing to do. It's what Jesus would do and I'll continue to stand by Joshua or whoever is being unfairly treated for as long as it takes.

Disagreeing on a non-essential issue does not make Joshua a false teacher, it makes him someone who disagrees on a non-essential issue. He has the liberty to do that.

Joey, you're not going to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and I don't know what to say to you. Besides, I'm sure that Joshua's probably becoming embarrassed by all of the attention so I'm going to drop it.

The bottom line is, Joey, if it's good enough for Jesus, it ought to be good enough for you.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My defense of Joshua needs no defense, it's the right thing to do. It's what Jesus would do and I'll continue to stand by Joshua or whoever is being unfairly treated for as long as it takes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is where you are wrong. Sexual immorality is a very important issue. Jesus says it is a very important issue. Throughout the Bible it is written that sexual immorality leads to death.

 

Tuor
Please tell me where Jesus addressed the issue of homosexuality. I don't think Joshua is saying sexual imorality is OK he is saying a monogomous, loving, homosexual relationship is OK.
Russell

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: rhoneycutt ]

 

And God says it's not OK! I'll go with God!

 

Matthew 15:18-20

But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

It is true that Jesus didn't say explicitly that homosexuality is sinful. This is easily explained by the fact that homosexuality wasn't a behavior practiced openly in Israel at that time.

Notice that when Jesus stopped the stoning of the adultress He did not say adultry wasn't sinful, He just asked who should kill her?

Paul does explicitly say that homosexuality is sinful. This is because Paul had to deal with a society where homosexuality was openly practiced. Are you trying to say that the Bible says that homosexualtiy is not sinful?

Jesus doesn't say that beasteality is sinful either. Does this mean that a man or woman who has a loving monogomous relationship with an animal is being righteous?

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

smoke_eater said, "Disagreeing on a non-essential issue does not make Joshua a false teacher, it makes him someone who disagrees on a non-essential issue. He has the liberty to do that."

Homosexuality and abortion are not salvational issues. I assume that's what you mean by non-essential? However, blatently going against God's sovereign decrees IS a salvational issue!

Romans 1:26-27 (NIV)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Now, you, Joshua, and anyone else who wants to pervert the Word of God needs to present a convencing argument (in context) that refutes this. To claim, as many do, that this excludes "a monogomous, loving, homosexual relationship" is pure nonsense and wishful thinking on the part of sinners who desire to continue in their sin and spite God!

Leviticus 18:22 (NIV)
22 ”‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

To this some will say that the Levitical law no longer applies. Does that mean that God has changed his mind about what is "detestable" to Him?

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Dear Mr. Webmaster, can we PLEASE close this now? Looks to me like it's turned into nothing but he said she said and " did I say that you said that I said that you said that?!" At the end of the day, you are to love one another as Christ loved us. But Christ didn't allow someone to live in sin. We all sin, every day. We are to EVERYDAY pick up our cross and start new. That means shrug off all those sins from the day before and start all over again. If you are homosexual, tell me how you do that? If you're "living" in sin, you're living in sin. Lets take the rose colored glasses off here folks. BTW Christ also whipped the money changers out of the temple, he loved them, but we was also punishing them.

Paula

 

What part of "I believe homosexuality is a sin" do you people not understand?

I've explained at least a dozen times that I believe homosexuality is wrong. Please listen for once, this is becoming very frustrating.

I will say this ONE MORE TIME: the morality of homosexuality IS NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN my point.

Again: I believe homosexuality is wrong.

My point was that the hateful attitudes shown on these boards towards gays are equally as sinful and that someone who affirms the essentials of the faith, as Joshua does, has the liberty to disagree on non-essentials.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> My point was that the hateful attitudes shown on these boards towards gays are equally as sinful and that someone who affirms the essentials of the faith, as Joshua does, has the liberty to disagree on non-essentials. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And again I say unto you, show me where I have been hateful to any gay or lesbian person. I am not a hateful person. The very fact that I keep keep trying to show you or anyone else that sin is still wrong, shows that I love you and everyone else. I don't want to bash gays anymore than I want to bash musslims or satanists or anyone else. I merely want to point out that just because we are under grace does not make sin, not sin. And the teaching of a point of view that sin is ok, should and will be dealt with. I will not stand by and say nothing while someone posts that sin is ok. I know you haven't said that but Josh has, He says that homosexuality and abortion are ok. And that in itself my friend is false teaching. And I will continue to call it what it is. I do Not have a hateful attitude toward Josh&lt; I love him and I pray for him, but I will not say it is non essential when someone says we can sin and still be ok with God.

God speed.

 

I would say according to the Bible God takes a rather harsh view of Sodomites:

Romans1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Ernie

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]

 

Smoke_Eater,

Why do you think that not practicing a homosexual lifestyle is not essential? From what I understand, Joshua is saying that a homosexual marriage is not sinful at all. If he is teaching this to others, although it is in actuality sinful, and they believe him, then he is teaching others to sin.

Jesus says that it would be better to have a stone tied around your neck and thrown into the sea rather than to teach others to sin.

Are you saying that living a sinful lifestyle has absolutely no bearing on one's salvation? If so, then you are ignoring alot of scripture including some of what Jesus said.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:


My point was that the hateful attitudes shown on these boards towards gays are equally as sinful and that someone who affirms the essentials of the faith, as Joshua does, has the liberty to disagree on non-essentials.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Smoke eater, here's the problem:

Suppose that I say that I don't believe that Peter denied Christ three times. Now, the Peter's denial of Christ is not an essential of the faith per se. However, by disbelieving it I am in rebellion against the clear teaching of Scripture, and in effect denying the authority and accuracy of God's Word (I didn't use the word "inerrancy" because I don't want to start a rabbit trail).

So, when someone claims to love God and follow His Word, and then takes a position on a very clear and unquestionable Biblical teaching, that can only be supported in rebellion to that Word, it does indeed become very essential.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Are you saying that living a sinful lifestyle has absolutely no bearing on one's salvation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tuor, if you guys would just read my posts once in a while instead of jumping all over me, you'd know exactly what I believe.

As I've said many times, Tuor, the morality of homosexuality and it's bearing on one's salvation is not the point here. These have been discussed in many other threads and I'll be happy to discuss it with you in one of them.

Everyone, please pay attention! It's very irritating when you ignore everything I say. It's also disrespectful. I wouldn't do that to any of you, please don't do it to me.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My point was that the hateful attitudes shown on these boards towards gays are equally as sinful and that someone who affirms the essentials of the faith, as Joshua does, has the liberty to disagree on non-essentials.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You say that if someone who affirms the essentials of the faith, then that person has the liberty to disagree on non-essentials.

This is what the Bible says:

1 John 2:4-6

The one who says,"I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truely been perfected. By this we know that we are in him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

You see, someone can affirm all he wants and still be a liar. The fruits of the person reveal the heart. Christians do God's will and follow His commands. This is what the Bible says.

I guess the true problem is when we start defining 'essentials' and 'non-essentials'.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I guess the true problem is when we start defining 'essentials' and 'non-essentials'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Amen, and Amen!


God speed.

 

Tuor, but there is certainly considerable debate among believers as to what those commandments are.

There is only one place we can go and find these answers and it is in the Bible.

Once we can stop trying to put God's commands into man's box, and accept the Bible for what it is saying, the commands become clear.

The nature of the Church- found in the Bible and is not being lived out very well today. The Church is supposed to be a group of friends we deal with on a regular basis, not just a couple of times a week.

the role of women- dealt with in the Bible, but it doesn't fit the worldly model, therefore many try to fit what God says into man's box.

the importance of missions- In other words, the importance of spreading the gosple. Very important. Exactly how this is done is irrelevent, just that it is done in a Christian manner.

the relationship between church and state- man's issue, not God's. This is totally secular. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'm glad all of this is so clear to you. It's not to most of Christianity <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you mean it's not clear to you. And nor do you want it clear to you, because then Josh would have to clean up his act. All I can say Josh is if you ever get saved by the grace of God, things will become much more clear.

 

I don't believe that all liberals do the things they say is alright to do. I believe that their downfall is trying to put God into man's box. The 'what seems right to me must be right' meantality.