Westcott and Hort

[Rippon]

On another thread these men were mentioned -- the subject got a bit side-tracted from the theme of the OP . So I thought I would start this thread .

From the book : " From The Mind Of God To The Mind Of man " Keith E. Gephart has some remarks in the concluding chapter . He defends Westcott in particular . Someone had written that Westcott repudiated Genesis 1-2 as a literal historical account , taught the universal fatherhood of God , taught the divinity of man , denied the deity of Christ , His resurrection and sinlessness .

" I decided to go to my shelves and pull down several of my Westcott commentaries in order to check the quotations being used to prove his heresy ... In reality , Westcott had made clear statements affirming orthodox doctrines such as the deity of Christ ; in no way was he guilty of'heresy ' and 'apostasy .'

 

[Askjo]

Keith E. Gephart quoted:

" I decided to go to my shelves and pull down several of my Westcott commentaries in order to check the quotations being used to prove his heresy ... In reality , Westcott had made clear statements affirming orthodox doctrines such as the deity of Christ ; in no way was he guilty of'heresy ' and 'apostasy .'

Did Keith check W/H's heretical comments in their books as seen below? Overlook....Shhh, shhh, shhh?

Hort denied that Christ is GOD in his book, page 5.

Westcott denied that Christ made known GOD in his book, page 15.

Westcott denied that Heaven is a place in his book, page 15

Hort denied the Second Coming of Christ in his book, page 44-45.

Westcott denied Christ's preexistence in his book, page 13.

And more.... That is enough.

 

[Rippon]

Well Askjo , you may be right . I do not own books by either man . I was just quoting some conservative men who have read them extensively .They apparently have come to conclusions different than yours . Feel free to develop your thoughts on the mater .

 

[Bluefalcon]

Perhaps more than any other text-critical work, I enjoy reading Westcott and Hort's Introduction to the New Testament in the Original Greek.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Rippon:
In reality , Westcott had made clear statements affirming orthodox doctrines such as the deity of Christ ; in no way was he guilty of'heresy ' and 'apostasy .'

Isn't it amazing how two different people can quote an author and claim two completely different mesages by the same person. The problem at least one is a lie.

 

[Forever settled in heaven]

Originally posted by Askjo:
Did Keith check W/H's heretical comments in their books as seen below? Overlook....Shhh, shhh, shhh?

Hort denied that Christ is GOD in his book, page 5.

Westcott denied that Christ made known GOD in his book, page 15.

Westcott denied that Heaven is a place in his book, page 15

Hort denied the Second Coming of Christ in his book, page 44-45.

Westcott denied Christ's preexistence in his book, page 13.

And more.... That is enough.

onus is on King James Onlyists to prove their charges of denial on the part of WH.

n many of those charges (read: old, repeatedly out-trotted chestnuts) have been refuted by, um, simply the context thru reading the actual writings.

there's a long discussion here: http://www.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?p=34089&highlight=tegart#post34089

n the Westcott Hort Resource Centre is easily available at http://www.westcotthort.com

 

[DeclareHim]

Westcott and Hort were great men of God. I do not always agree with them but they didn't corrupt the Bible or anything else. They both held to Orthodox doctrine.

 

[Salamander]

I have never seen how two men can overthrow the faith of so many just because they came up with a dynamic way of translating Greek, but of course, only according to what they demand the Greek to say.

Sounds much like darwin, knowing his formulas would never be proven true or false, due to the vast amount of variables he adjusted to fit his theory.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by DeclareHim:
Westcott and Hort were great men of God. They both held to Orthodox doctrine.

False. They were "closet" catholics according to their quotations because they did not want anyone to know what they are doing against the Word of God upon their unbelief dues to the warning of John 5:44-47.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Salamander:
I have never seen how two men can overthrow the faith of so many just because they came up with a dynamic way of translating Greek, but of course, only according to what they demand the Greek to say.

Sounds much like darwin, knowing his formulas would never be proven true or false, due to the vast amount of variables he adjusted to fit his theory.

Westcott and Hort were interested in Darwin against the Book of Genesis.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Salamander:
I have never seen how two men can overthrow the faith of so many just because they came up with a dynamic way of translating Greek, but of course, only according to what they demand the Greek to say.

Are you really that ignorant of this subject?

W-H, right or wrong, didn't come up with a dynamic way of translating Greek. They came up with a somewhat scientific means for critically evaluating manuscript evidence.

Sounds much like darwin, knowing his formulas would never be proven true or false, due to the vast amount of variables he adjusted to fit his theory.

They did come out of the same philosophical era and impulses.

They favored organized study of things over tradition. I would submit that it was the basic presuppositions that led to errors by both Darwin and W-H. I doubt that it was dishonesty or even a flaw in their motivation to set up objective criterion for evaluating textual evidence on the part of W-H.

The problem with darwinists is that they deny he made any critical presuppositions that should be questioned. The presuppositions of W-H have constantly been subject to review, criticism, and change.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Askjo:
//Hort denied that Christ is GOD in his book, page 5.

Westcott denied that Christ made known GOD in his book, page 15.

Westcott denied that Heaven is a place in his book, page 15

Hort denied the Second Coming of Christ in his book, page 44-45.

Westcott denied Christ's preexistence in his book, page 13.//

Please tell us what is the 'book of Hort'?

Please tell us what is the 'book of Westcott'.

 

[rsr]

Askjo, are you still repeating slander after you have been told the truth many, many times?

Shame.

(The charges that Westcott denied the deity of Christ and the pre-existence of the Word are easily refuted by anyone who come across his work in a form that hasn't been heavily edited by critics.)

James May has written ably of Westcott's theology, which he considered flawed, but not in the ways KJOists suggest.

http://kjvonly.org/james/index_james.html

 

[Forever settled in heaven]

Originally posted by Askjo:
False. They were "closet" catholics according to their quotations because they did not want anyone to know what they are doing against the Word of God upon their unbelief dues to the warning of John 5:44-47.

And what does your Holy Bible say about bearing false witness?

tsk tsk tsk

 

[PeterAV]

My turn;
Westcott and Hort were heretics;

W=Westcott
H=Hort

Quotes by or of Westcott and Hort.

#1To me it appears that the Spirit is teaching us now above all things the unity of life,of all things,of all beings,of the seen and of the unseen....We view...men as disconected,but this is simply a consequence of our limited powers.To God all life that is truly life is one...There can be no doubt that the uniform tendency of recent research is to establish in many unexpected ways the closeness of the conections by which we are bound one to another.In proportion as we know more fully,this conection is found to be more powerful and far reaching.It is the element-one element-in the idea of life which has been revealed to us in this age...the little life which is now my own is part of the vaster life.W

#2)The relation of parts to wholes pervades the invisible no less than the visible world,and beneath the individuality which accompanies our personal lives lies hidden a deeper community of being as well as feeling and action.H

#3)One who is the Creator.H

#4)All..is gather up without loss of personality in One..God in all things and all things in God.W

#5)As far as I could judge,the idea of La Salette was that of God revealing himself now,and not in one form but in many.W

#6)I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-Worship and Jesus worship have very much in common in their cause and in their results.H

#7)I am a staunch sacredotalist...the sacrements must be the center.The bond of a common divine life derived in sacrements is the most comprehensive bone possible.H

# There was a time when it was usual to draw a sharp line between religious and worldly things.That time has happily gone by.W

#9)Fighting and dancing..I hope the church of the futer will foster.H

#10)it is no longer'faith in God',but 'faith for things'.W

#11)The revelation of the Divine in man realized in and through Christ..Man is divine..Every type of every essential human excellence coexists in Christ..humanity has been raised in the Son of Man to the right hand of God.W

#12)David is not a chronological person.W

#13)Only a social interpretation of the Gospel..(1Jn2:2 is)foreign to the language of the New Testament..Sacrifice and vicarious punishment(?)..Man paying his debt..Some by dilligent obedience have been raised to the loftiest places in the celestial hierarchy..remove through his blood(Col 1:14)..the redemptive efficacy of Christ's work is to be found in his whole life...The redemptive work of Christ was complete in his last discourses..No doubt many do not agree with me.W

#14)I confess I have no repugnance to the primative doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan.I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father.H

#15)The remission of sins has always been connected with Baptism,the sacrament or incorporation..We are placed into relation to God by Baptism.W

#16)I am a staunch sacredotalist...Paul connected the state(salvation)with a past completed act(baptism)by which it was formerly taken possession of .H

#17)It is not surprising that [one] should be startled when they are told abruptly how many points of contact in form or substance our scriptures have with other writings,how fragmenrary they are,how intensly human.We are comming to know the blessings which the withdrawal of old oppinions discloses..W
#1 douts of infalibility..I am also glad that you take the same provisional ground as to infalibility that I do..H

#19)Virgin apparitions are God revealing himself now and not in one form but in many..the manifold commings of Christ..The Word has different forms,manifesting Himself to each as it is expedient for him.W

#20)The universal fatherhood of God..a brotherhood of men,but also a brotherhood of nations...is the destiny of mankind.W

#21)All things come from God and go to God..From God to God..Worlds grow out of worlds directs the cyclic periods.W

#22)No one now..holds that the first three chapters of Genesis give a literal history..I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did.W

Westcott and Hort,Heretics!

#23)The second death is probably a combination of the Deluge and Sodom..it stands between the Garden of Eden and the Manna..Finite sin cannot deserve infinite punishment.H

#24)The wrath to come refers to unbelieving Israel.W

#25)Purgatory..a great and important truth.H

#26)Hell is figurative.H

#27)Hell is not the place of punishment of the guilty,but Hades is the common abode of departed spirits...everlasting punishment(Mt 25:46)wholly inconceivable.W

#2 We have no sure knowledge erspecting the duration of future punishment,and the word eternal has a far higher meaning.H

#29)Christ was and is perfectly man.He never spoke directly of himself as God.He does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ.W

#30)The divine anointing or Christhood..the prophet,the people..and the dimly seen Head..are all partakers of the divine anointing and messiahship.H

#31)The Son of Man was not necessarily identified with the Christ.It is not said that Jesus glorified not himself,but the Christ.He never speaks directly of himself as God.W

#32)The belief is in Christ not in any proposition about Christ.W

#33)Each Christian is in due measure himself a Christ..Christians are in a true sense Christs,anointed ones.W

#34)The words might no doubt bear the Arian meaning of [Jesus as]the first created being.(Rev 3:14,Begining)H

#35)It is impossible to suppose that two beings distinct in essence could be equal in power.We find ourselves met by difficulty which belongs to the idea of begetting..If we keep both[Arianism and Sabellianism]before us we may hope to attain..to that knowledge of the truth.W

#36)One,truly man,fulfilled a divine office,that is Jesus.W

#37)We realize the perfect humanity of Christ..at this crisis[baptism]first became conscious as a man of a power of the spirit within him.W

#38 Socrates[said]such as purified themselves by phylosophy live,wholly without bodies for the future,..the words surely memorable.His[Crist's] flesh would be removed..through earthly dissolution.
The ressurection seems to me to be the image of man unfallen to the higher life..not future but present:..not I shall be hearafter but I Am.W

#39)Hermes,the sacred scribe of the gods.W

#40)There are differences between male and female
character under which,we divine that there lies a real identity,and consequent tendency to fussion in the ultimate ideal.W

#41)Westcott,Gorham,C.B.Scott,Benson,Bradshaw,Laurd etc.and I have started a society for the investigation of ghosts and all supernatural appearances and effects,being all disposed to believe that such things really exhist..Westcott is drawing up a schelule of questions.The A.V.from the Greek Texus Receptus,was Villainous.H

#42)Macaulay is horrified at the paper..During the vacation I distibuted eight or ten ghostly papers..I left a paper on my table the other evening when the Ray met here.and it excited some attention,but not ,I think much sympathy.Dr._____ was appalled to find such a spot of medevil darkness flecking light of Cambridge University in the ninteenth century.There were also grave smile and civil questions;and finally several coppies were carried off.
I sent you two ghostly papers;you can have more if you want them,but I find they go very fast and the 750 copies which we printed go by no means far enouph.We are promised a large number of well authenticated private stories,but they have not arrived yet.Our most active members are however absent from Cambridge:to witt Westcott and Wells..H

#43)This may be cowardice-I have a sort of craving that our text[New Greek New Testament]should be cast upon the world before we deal with matters likely to brand us with suspicion.I mean a text issued by men already known for what will undoubtedly be treated as dangerous herecy will have great difficulties in finding its way to regions which it might otherwise hope to reach and wence it would not be easily banished by subsequent alarms..If only we speak our minds,we shall not be able to avoid giving grave offence to..the miscalled oorthodoxy of the day.H

#44)(S)trike blindly..much evil would result from the publick discussion.W

#45)There is one life which has expression in many forms..The one life is fulfilled in many parts.`To make of life one harmonious whole,to realize the invisible.Motto.W

#46)The connection by which we are bound one to another..is found to be more far-reaching and more powerful.It is the element-one element-in the idea of life which has been specially revealed to us in this age .W

#47)I fear you scarcely tolerate my having joined the Apostles.H

Westcott And Hort Heretics
*******

As one can see the verbage that these two fellows exude is quite suspect.

PeterAV

 

[DesiderioDomini]

actually, we see how suspect your information is.

Just like Ripinger, you cannot present your case without ........

I wonder what spin you will employ when several of these quotes are shown to be divorced from their context by your ........

Man, I wish KJVO could define intellectual honesty.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Probably so DD.

I wish they could provide soures for their
quotes. I wish they would check their untruths
before they put them on the BB. In general
their quotes are of the form as GOSSIP which
the Bible condems. In fact, it has been shown
over and over that source like G.A.Riplinger
are NOT acceptable, reasonable, or reliable
sources of information.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Could Peter and/or Askjo please provide original source documentation of their quotes so we could read them in their full context without the ellipses?

"H" and "W" are hardly scholarly documetation. I am no fan of W&H or their texts, but would appreciate some kind of proof of these claims.

 

[rsr]

To take one example, which Brian Tegart tracked down:

"I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-Worship and Jesus worship have very much in common in their cause and in their results."

According to Tegart, this is found in Life and Letters of Hort, Vol II, pp 49-50.

"I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-worship and 'Jesus'-worship have very much in common in their causes and their results. Perhaps the whole question may be said to be involved in the true idea of mediation, which is almost universally corrupted in one or both of two opposite directions. On the one hand we speak and think as if there were no real bringing near, such as the N.T. tells of, but only an interposition between two permanently distant objects. On the other we condemn all secondary human mediators as injurious to the One, and shut our eyes to the indestructible fact of existing human mediation which is to be found everywhere. But this last error can hardly be expelled till Protestants unlearn the crazy horror of the idea of Priesthood."

And take a look at "One,truly man,fulfilled a divine office,that is Jesus." (The Historic Faith, p 47)

Westcott goes on to say in The Historic Faith, p 49:

"Thus from the Person of the Lord we go on to consider His Nature. We confess that He is 'the only son of God' and 'our Lord'. In both respects, though truly man Who lived with men, He occupies a position essentially distinct from that of any other. His Godhead is one with the Godhead of the Father, His sovereignty over men is absolute. Christians are sons of God, but sons by adoption in virtue of their fellowship with Him Who is Son by nature. There are many lords who claim the obedience of outward service [but] One only Who demands the complete surrender of the soul.

We believe - I say - and confess that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God. The confession cannot be lightly made. If the simple thought of God ought to fill us with speechless awe, the further thought of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God, is yet more overwhelming. On such a mystery, where human words and human thoughts must fail, our words should be few, and these spoken rather in devotion that in explanation or argument."

Hort and Wescott were Anglicans and hardly fundamentalists, but I think it is unfair to claim they held beliefs they didn't.

 

[DeclareHim]

Good example RSR of how bad people especially certain people take W&H quotations and butcher them to make them read as they wish. This conduct is not becoming of Christians.