Westcott and Hort...

[michelle]

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What is the implication of this post?
Is it not the same as your implication concerning Wescott and Hort?

HankD
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No it is not. Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists who were responsible for the text that underlines the mv's of today. The KJB translators were not. The KJB translators murdered no one. The KJB translators did not have these heretical views. The KJB translators believed in the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and the infallibility of his words. Westcott and Hort did not.

Eph. 6

10. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Matt. 10

25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26. Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by michelle:
Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists who were responsible for the text that underlines the mv's of today.

And that is a lie. Your opinion and that of your only-sect mentors, but nonetheless a lie.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by michelle:
Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists who were responsible for the text that underlines the mv's of today.

Correct! Right now they are in hell.

The KJB translators were not. The KJB translators murdered no one. The KJB translators did not have these heretical views. The KJB translators believed in the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and the infallibility of his words. Westcott and Hort did not.

Correct! W/H were unbelievers who deceived you if you defend <edited by moderator> MVs.

[ August 19, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by michelle:
Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists who were responsible for the text that underlines the mv's of today.

And that is a lie. Your opinion and that of your only-sect mentors, but nonetheless a lie. </font>[/QUOTE]Lie? No! Westcott did not believe that Heaven is PLACE. Do you not think he was a heretic? Hort did not believe that the Christ is God. Do you think he is in Heaven?

 

[rsr]

We believe - I say - and confess that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God. The confession cannot be lightly made. If the simple thought of God ought to fill us with speechless awe, the further thought of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one God, is yet more overwhelming.

On such a mystery, where human words and human thoughts must fail, our words should be few, and these spoken rather in devotion that in explanation or argument. Happy are we if we can yet rest in the simple language of our Baptismal
Creed. We need go no further for perfect adora-
tion and perfect confidence.

It is enough for us to know that He Who lived our life, on Whom we place our trust, is the only Son of God, and therefore Himself in essence very God: to know that the realities of Fatherhood and Son-
ship lie in the Godhead, so that we cannot now
think of the one God except as Father nor as
Father without the Son: to know that the Word , the Logos, in the phrases of St John, He Who was in the beginning with God, when time began, Who
was therefore with God beyond time, He through
Whom all things were made, became flesh : to
know that He who in His human nature can be
touched with the feeling of our infirmities is able in His divine nature to help to the uttermost those who come to Him.

Such knowledge is indeed most practical. If,
as we have seen, the confession of God as the
Creator of heaven and earth brings all things
very near to us, much more does this confession
of our belief in Jesus Christ the only Son of God
through Whom are all things and we through
Him.

Wescott, "The Historic Faith"

Is this bad Christology?

 

[michelle]

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Is this bad Christology?
--------------------------------------------------

No. But their life and actions, and involvements say and show the opposite of what was written in that.

Matt. 7

5. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


2 Cor. 2

17. For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Cor. 6

14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[rsr]

So you say, and there is really no getting past the fact that you despise people you don't know and that some folks are willing to consign them to hell based on nothing other than quotes jerked from context on half-baked Web pages.

As Voltaire said in another context, "If there were no Wescott and Hort, it would be necessary
to invent them" to unjustly justify such irrationality.

Grace and peace.

 

[David J]

Askjo said,"Correct! Right now they are in hell"

And who made you God Askjo? How dare you make such a statement! You do not know if W&H accepted Jesus Christ as Lord by faith through grace! Before you point your KJVO finger at someone and claim that they are in Hell you might should stop and think.

I do not agree with W&H fully nor do I agree with the translators of the KJV fully. I will not create a lie to jusify a point that I want to make. I wish I could say the same about the KJVO Crowd.

How many times does it need to be stated that MV today are not W&H text! My NASB does not only use W&H text....sigh...the KJVO lies continue!

Askjo said,"Correct! W/H were unbelievers who deceived you if you defend infected MVs."

Slander, slander, and more slander! Infected MV! Oh, please! What about that infected 1769 you use? It's not a real AV1611! Yet again your double standards shine bright for all to see.

The bottom line is you have no proof! No scripture and no evidence outside of twisted lies and distorted history. I have not had a single KJVO give me scripture or proof without a twist to it.

The W&H slander needs to stop. It's one thing to write about factual evidence that W&H believed, but it's sin to lie about these two men. Yes, I said sin! I don't have a problem with someone pointing out thge errors that W&H made etc... but I can not support someone who lies about W&H.

I personally find Askjo's statement about W&H being in Hell offensive and I ask our mods to consider removing any future references containing this offensive slander.

 

[Slambo]

I cant honestly say if Askjo is correct or not,but,I've never read any clear cut testamony from either of them concerning their conversion to Christ.Anyone have any info on that???

 

[michelle]

Here is another link that I came across last night, that are eerily close to what Westcott and Hort said and what they also studied, and to whom people they were associates with seemed to believe. Please, dear christian, before reading this link, pray for discernment. As the following link is very gnostic.

http://www.essene.com/MysterySchool/TheLostLight/Ambrosia.htm


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by David J:
Askjo said,"Correct! Right now they are in hell"

Askjo said,"Correct! W/H were unbelievers who deceived you if you defend infected MVs."

Slander, slander, and more slander! Infected MV! Oh, please! What about that infected 1769 you use? It's not a real AV1611! Yet again your double standards shine bright for all to see.

It's one thing to write about factual evidence that W&H believed, but it's sin to lie about these two men. Yes, I said sin! I don't have a problem with someone pointing out thge errors that W&H made etc... but I can not support someone who lies about W&H.

I personally find Askjo's statement about W&H being in Hell offensive and I ask our mods to consider removing any future references containing this offensive slander.

The problem is that this kind of post is not an attack on another member, but an opinion. It would be the same to say "Hitler is in hell" today. I don't think we can judge any man's heart, but these are simply opinions.

 

[natters]

Michelle said "Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists"

False witness.

Michelle said "The KJB translators believed in the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and the infallibility of his words. Westcott and Hort did not."

False witness.

Askjo said " Right now they are in hell."

False witness.

Askjo said "W/H were unbelievers who deceived you"

False witness.

Askjo said "Westcott did not believe that Heaven is PLACE."

False witness.

Askjo said "Hort did not believe that the Christ is God."

False witness.

Michelle said "their life and actions, and involvements say and show the opposite of what was written in that."

False witness.

Slambo said "I've never read any clear cut testamony from either of them concerning their conversion to Christ.Anyone have any info on that???"

I have seen much more evidence of their salvation than I do of Erasums and the Translators of the KJV. In Westcott's book "The Historic Faith" which is mostly online at http://www.tegarttech.com/wh/books/historicfaith/index.html he confesses that Jesus Christ is God, affirms the Trinity, that Jesus was born of a virgin, was sinless, died on the cross for our sins, rose again and is coming again. Westcott calls him "saviour", "God", and "Lord". Read chapters 4, 5, 6 and 7 of that book (it won't take you long), and see for yourself.

 

[michelle]

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I have seen much more evidence of their salvation than I do of Erasums and the Translators of the KJV. In Westcott's book "The Historic Faith" which is mostly online at http://www.tegarttech.com/wh/books/historicfaith/index.html he confesses that Jesus Christ is God, affirms the Trinity, that Jesus was born of a virgin, was sinless, died on the cross for our sins, rose again and is coming again. Westcott calls him "saviour", "God", and "Lord". Read chapters 4, 5, 6 and 7 of that book (it won't take you long), and see for yourself.
--------------------------------------------------

If you put on discernment, and you actually knew how and what gnostics thought, and you recognize not only what they tried to cover in those chapters with christian terminology, but their studies, comments on those studies, their life and their associates, you would see the truth. They were wolves in sheep's clothing, and you are decieved.

Amos 3

3. Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
4. Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
5. Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
6. Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

2 Cor. 6

13. Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

michelle said "If you put on discernment, and you actually knew how and what gnostics thought, and you recognize not only what they tried to cover in those chapters with christian terminology, but their studies, comments on those studies, their life and their associates, you would see the truth."

If you would take off your heavily biased glasses and look at things unfiltered by your desire to commit slander, you would see the truth.

michelle said "They were wolves in sheep's clothing, and you are decieved."

False witness.

 

[michelle]

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Michelle said "Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists"

False witness.
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Evidence says otherwise. You are bearing false witness against me, and the evidence and defending gnostic unbelievers.


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Michelle said "The KJB translators believed in the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and the infallibility of his words. Westcott and Hort did not."

False witness.
--------------------------------------------------


You are bearing false witness, as you have not any proof to the contrary. Please read the preface of 1611. You are defending gnostic unbelievers.


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Askjo said " Right now they are in hell."

False witness.
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If these two men were gnostics, to which the evidence strongly points, then they were unbelievers and right now in hell. Only God knows if their hearts changed prior to their death.


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Askjo said "W/H were unbelievers who deceived you"

False witness.
--------------------------------------------------


Yes, you are bearing false witness against yourself and others because you are deceived.


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Askjo said "Westcott did not believe that Heaven is PLACE."

False witness.
--------------------------------------------------


This is true, as gnostics do not believe in a literal heaven. Westcott and Hort were gnostics.


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Askjo said "Hort did not believe that the Christ is God."

False witness.
--------------------------------------------------


You are bearing false witness against the truth. These men did not believe Jesus Christ is God. They only believed he was enlightened with the Christ, just as they believed was the potential for every other human being.


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Michelle said "their life and actions, and involvements say and show the opposite of what was written in that."

False witness.
--------------------------------------------------


You are bearing false witness against the evidence and the truth.


Why do you keep yourself in denial and deception of this?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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he confesses that Jesus Christ is God, affirms the Trinity, that Jesus was born of a virgin, was sinless, died on the cross for our sins, rose again and is coming again. Westcott calls him "saviour", "God", and "Lord". Read chapters 4, 5, 6 and 7 of that book (it won't take you long), and see for yourself.
--------------------------------------------------

Just as many heretics and apostates have done, and continue to do. By their fruits you shall know them. Also remember:

2 Cor.11

10. As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11. Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
16. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
17. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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If you would take off your heavily biased glasses and look at things unfiltered by your desire to commit slander, you would see the truth.

michelle said "They were wolves in sheep's clothing, and you are decieved."

False witness.
--------------------------------------------------


I don't have the bias in this, but the truth and love for it. It is you sadly, who needs to take off the glasses of bias against a false and man-made label, and of doubt. You are allowing yourself to be deceived because of this. You are bearing false witness against the truth and defending and condoning that to which you should not.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

Michelle said "Evidence says otherwise. You are bearing false witness against me, and the evidence and defending gnostic unbelievers."

Evidence does not say otherwise. False slander says otherwise.

Michelle said "You are bearing false witness, as you have not any proof to the contrary."

Not providing proof is not bearing false witness. Trying to pass of slander as proof is bearing false witness. I have provided proof, I have provided links to their first-hand writings, unlike you who have only provided links to 3rd and 4th hand slander and have tried desperately (and unsuccessfully) to create guilt by association.

Michelle said "Please read the preface of 1611.

As I have repeatedly told you, I already have. Several times.

Michelle said "You are defending gnostic unbelievers."

False witness.

Michelle said "If these two men were gnostics, to which the evidence strongly points, then they were unbelievers and right now in hell."

The evidence strongly points to you spinning evidence to make them appear as gnostics. The evidence strongly points to them being orthodox. The evidence strongly points to you bearing false witness.

Michelle said "Only God knows if their hearts changed prior to their death."

Tell that to Askjo, he's the one claiming to know what only God could know.

Michelle said "Yes, you are bearing false witness against yourself and others because you are deceived."

That is false witness.

Michelle said "Westcott and Hort were gnostics."

False witness.

Michelle said "These men did not believe Jesus Christ is God. They only believed he was enlightened with the Christ, just as they believed was the potential for every other human being."

FALSE WITNESS.

You have not one shred of evidence that they did not believe in heaven, that Jesus was not God, or that they believed Jesus was only "enlightened with the Christ". I have piles of evidence to the contrary, and have posted links to their own words that show you to be a liar. I do not understand why you are doing this. You continue to bear false witness, and dismiss first hand evidence just to cling to your lies. I hope you soon see the error of your ways. One day, you will.

 

[michelle]

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Not providing proof is not bearing false witness. Trying to pass of slander as proof is bearing false witness. I have provided proof, I have provided links to their first-hand writings, unlike you who have only provided links to 3rd and 4th hand slander and have tried desperately (and unsuccessfully) to create guilt by association.

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And you are ignoring ALL OTHER EVIDENCE that speaks to the contrary, and them claiming I am slandering and bearing false witness. It is you who is guilty of this.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[HankD]

No it is not. Westcott and Hort were heretics/occultists who were responsible for the text that underlines the mv's of today. The KJB translators were not. The KJB translators murdered no one. The KJB translators did not have these heretical views. The KJB translators believed in the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and the infallibility of his words. Westcott and Hort did not.

Lancelot Andrewes and George Abbott were members of the High Commission Court and were KJV translators. Abbott became Archbishop after Bancroft died. A follower of Lancelot Andrewes, William Laud (1573-1645), who was a leader among the younger Anglicans during the reign of James, would become the Archbishop during the reign of Charles I, James's son. Frere described Laud as "the man who was to take up Andrewes' work and carry it out into practice by energetic means" (English Church, p. 371). Some of us question whether the High Commission Court with its "distinguished" members such as some KJV translators and several Archbishops ought not to be compared to the Inquisition of the Church of Rome, the “mother church” of the Church of England.

Lancelot Andrewes and George Abbot while on the High Commission Court, presided over the High Commission Court proceedings where Bartholomew Legate and Edward Wightman were tried for their heresies. Abbot and Andrewes urged that Legate and Wightman be burned at the stake, and King James approved their decision and had them burned in 1612.

On the 18th of March, 1612, Bartholomew Legate, an Arian, suffered at the stake in Smithfield; on the 11th of April, in the same year, Edward Wightman was put to death at Lichfield, in the same manner . This man, if the warrant for his execution may be believed, was a wholesale heretic, for he was charged with “the wicked heresies of Ebion, Cerinthus, Valentinus, Arius, Macedonius, Simon Magus, of Manes, Photinus, and of the Anabaptists, and other arch-heretics; and, moreover, of other cursed opinions, by the instinct of Satan excogitated, and heretofore unheard of.” He maintained “that the baptism of infants is an abominable custom,” and “that Christianity is not wholly professed and preached in the Church of England, but in part.” …

Another person, said to be a “Spanish Arian,” was also condemned to die; but so much sympathy had been expressed by the people at the other executions, that “he was suffered to linger out his life in Newgate, where he ended the same;” for “King James politically preferred,” says Thomas Fuller, “that heretics hereafter, though condemned, should silently and privately waste themselves away in the prison, rather than to grace them, and amuse others, with the solemnity of a public execution, which in popular judgment usurped the honor of a persecution.” Fuller had before observed that “such burning of heretics much startled common people,” and that “the purblind eyes of common judgments looked only on what was next to them (the suffering itself), which they beheld with compassion, not minding the demerits of the guilt, which deserved the same.” [18] Thus wrote a Protestant clergyman of the seventeenth century; but murder is murder, however perpetrated, whether by the sword, the fire, or the slower process of the dungeon.

Baptist History Chapter VI, JM Cramp D.D

http://www.pbministries.org/History/J.%20M.%20Cramp/Baptist%20History/baptist_history.htm

Proverbs 6
16 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

HankD