Matthew 23:23-28 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
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Western vs. Eastern Soteriology
- Thread starter ntchristian
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ntchristian
Active Member
Problem is, everyone disagrees on what the Bible says and means. It's very helpful to know where beliefs come from and why. I bet most Protestants don't even know that they still share an awful lot with Roman Catholicism, even after the Reformation.
ntchristian
Active Member
JonC, thank you for beautifully explaining the differences, and the consequences of the beliefs.
ntchristian
Active Member
Waste of a good mind not to know where your beliefs came from. And it's not sufficient to say the Bible. All churches and denominations and their members say and believe that, but those beliefs have all been influenced by a particular soteriology, even though they may not and probably are not aware of that fact. If it is as simple as you make it out to be, why do all the non-Orthodox denominations have virtually the same soteriology? It's because of where they came from, not because of how they read the Bible. Luther claimed to break from the RCC, but he kept a lot of RCC soteriology, Augustinianism being a prime example. Calvin was even more of an Augustinian than Luther.
I don't care. Let's look at scripture verse by verse and see what God says. On 95% of it we should agree regardless of denomination.
Where the problem lies is that humans cling to their denominational traditions regardless if the tradition has and biblical merit.
Example: Infant baptism. Zero scripture, yet many hold to it with an iron fist.
More than sufficient to say the Bible. Read it. Observe what it actually says. Ask questions on your observations. Answer those questions via interpretation. Check the saints who came before to see if they had any similar thoughts. If not, ask why not. Do more observation. After all is done, apply it to your life.
It's not rocket science. No philosophy needed. Just diligence in studying the Bible
As for total depravity, I doubt if very many believe that doctrine anymore.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I think you're right.
I know of very few that do.
It's a sign of the times.
We are in the last of the last days.
He is very near.
Scripture says its Christ's Circumcision. Ergo the first recorded argument over baptism 200ad was having to wait 8 days for a infant to be baptized rather than infants be baptized at all that happens 1500 years later.
We should also start with this notion of "biblical Merit" and show scripture that states scripture is the final and only authority, ie for something to be christian it must be biblical, which the bible never teaches.
Can we move off baptism and back to the topic?
The Israel from the beginning and through the time of Christ’s earthly days was not Eastern, but Western.
This is verifiable by looking at Paul’s desire to go east, but God obliged him to go west.
The Greek/Roman teaching then influenced Paul’s expressions in the writing.
Eastern thinking is distinctly different even in this multicultural time.
The Israel from the beginning and through the time of Christ’s earthly days was not Eastern, but Western.
This is verifiable by looking at Paul’s desire to go east, but God obliged him to go west.
The Greek/Roman teaching then influenced Paul’s expressions in the writing.
Eastern thinking is distinctly different even in this multicultural time.
ntchristian
Active Member
Unfortunately, not true. Every denomination believes that their doctrines are what the Bible teaches.
ntchristian
Active Member
I am decidedly Eastern in my thinking, and so it's been rather shocking to my system to be exposed to Western thinking as I have been. Seems very foreign to me. I don't think I can ever get used to or accept Western soteriology.
Not sure that I understand what you are saying. Israel is an oriental country--it is located in the near east.
I think you're right.
I know of very few that do.
It's a sign of the times.
We are in the last of the last days.
He is very near.
Thank you for your comment. Total depravity is not found in the mainstream churches as far as I know. American culture teaches that there is good in everyone. Here is what Americans mostly believe:
"There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behooves any of us to find fault with the rest of us."
It is good to at least become familiar with the landscape.
It does allow for some understanding, however understanding does not oblige agreement.
Understanding does aid in discussions and what one will hold as to various opinions on the Scripture renderings.
The reason I believe these theories of atonement are not a small matter is they affect theology going forward.And swallow a Camel... Brother Glen
If the Eastern view is accepted then both Calvinism and Arminianism are false (they are flawed at the start).
If the Western position is correct then the Moral Influence Theory and Christus Victor positions are false for the same reasons. They may hold some truth but as a whole they misunderstand the Atonement.
It is no small matter. The Atonement is a central doctrine.
Correct, yet for the vast majority of theological discussion resolves what is seen in the Scriptures to be taken from the view of Western Greek/Roman views and philosophical positions rather than eastern.
Modern Israel thinking is not the same as the ancients. The social and justice systems are not meshed with the ancient mindset. Much of the internal political strife in that area is found in attempts to blend the modern to the ancient thinking. The same occurs even of the BB.
This is also a reason some Western believers find some accounts found in the OT somewhat uncomfortable, and needing pigeonholed into statements such as “in those days...” or “when people lived as...” as if a consignment of lesser value in comparison to a more “civilized” behavior is necessary.
There was a consequence impacting future prophetic fulfillment when Paul was obliged to go West rather than turn, as he desired, to the East.
Perhaps that significance has not received the attention it should.
The issue you point out here is important.
People hold ideological views and worldviews because they belong to a culture. Most of us hold a Western mindset because that is who we are (we are a product of this worldview).
@AustinC rightly cautions not to apply philosophy but to trust in Scripture. BUT he is not right in that we all apply philosophy and need to be mindful of the presuppositions that influence our understanding.
Calvinism is dependent on a philosophical understanding of justice and the centrality of divine justice. Without philosophy we would have no Calvinists. It is not something we necessarily apply intentionally but it is there.
When anyone speaks of the "normal reading" of Scripture they are speaking of philosophy (i.e. What they see as the obvious interpretation).
ntchristian
Active Member
My feelings exactly.
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