Westminster Confession Of Faith And The Fall Of Man

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I am not the one who denies Jesus is the means of salvation, you are.

Well you got that right. I absolutely am.

How were you saved from God's wrath? You do something very good? You prayed the right prayer? Or were you covered by the blood of the Lamb?

I was saved by Christ.

Jesus is our propitiation or means of salvation/ Quite simple really.

You really don't get it, do you? The Lord Jesus is not our means of salvation and is never ever anywhere referred to as such in Scripture. What is He referred to as over and over again in Scripture? As our SAVIOUR. You are the one who rabbits on about the "very words of Scripture." So why don't you use them?

Look, a carpenter is not the means of carpentry; his tools-- the hammer, nails, plane, bradawl etc-- are the means of carpentry. The carpenter is the one who carpents. He uses the means
So the Lord Jesus Christ is our SAVIOUR. He is the one who SAVES. His blood, the cross, the grace of God, our faith, preachers and evangelists are all means of salvation, but Christ is the Saviour, because He saved us. God is also frequently described as our Saviour, but that is because Jesus Christ is God.

Luke 2:11. 'For there is born to you this day in the city of David........' What? A means of salvation? No! '.......A Saviour who is Christ the Lord.'

Matthew 1:21. 'And you shall call His name Jesus, for He will........' Do what? Become the means of salvation? No! '........He will save His people from their sins.'

 

[Van]

Martin, did you hear the one about if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging?

Now you deny you were saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Martin, how many times have you made this same argument? At least three in my memory.

Did anyone say the words "Jesus is the means of our salvation" are found in scripture? Nope.

And not to put too fine a point on it, if you have not been saved, Jesus is the means of salvation. If you have been saved, Jesus was the means of your salvation.

Jesus is the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath, for the sins of the whole world. In other view is bogus.

 

[MennoSota]

Martin, did you hear the one about if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging?

Now you deny you were saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Martin, how many times have you made this same argument? At least three in my memory.

Did anyone say the words "Jesus is the means of our salvation" are found in scripture? Nope.

And not to put too fine a point on it, if you have not been saved, Jesus is the means of salvation. If you have been saved, Jesus was the means of your salvation.

Jesus is the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath, for the sins of the whole world. In other view is bogus.

LOL, Van. Martin made his case so simply and yet you are blind and deaf to what he said.
And...what he said is not at all what you claim he said. Please put your pride away.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, did you hear the one about if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging?

Perhaps I should take a leaf out of your book. When you find yourself in a hole, obfuscate and bluster.

Now you deny you were saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Now where Have I said that? You are constantly bleating about people misrepresenting you, but you do not hesitate to do the same to others. I have been saved by Christ. He is my saviour. Is He yours? One of the means He used to save me was His own precious blood.

Martin, how many times have you made this same argument? At least three in my memory.

And I shall go on doing so for as long as God spares me and as long as you keep trotting out your false teaching; whichever comes first.

Did anyone say the words "Jesus is the means of our salvation" are found in scripture? Nope.

Yet you are the one who has talked of this thread about 'the very words of Scripture. But when it comes to your pet doctrines, you can't find any! It speaks volumes. As you yourself wrote in Post #70, "I always get a little suspicious when claimed support is not identified by citing a passage."

And not to put too fine a point on it, if you have not been saved, Jesus is the means of salvation. If you have been saved, Jesus was the means of your salvation.

No. That is not scriptural as well you know and as everyone else now knows. If you have not been saved, you need to go to the Saviour; He is the one who will save you. If you have been saved, it is because you have trusted in the Saviour and He has saved you.

Jesus is the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath, for the sins of the whole world. In other view is bogus.

Your teaching is bogus, and the point I am making is not trivial but vitally important because your other unbiblical teaching about God transferring us into Christ is dependent upon it. I will come to that later on as I have time.

 

[Van]

I see lots of name calling and insult hurling, but still nothing to refute the fact Jesus is the means of salvation, and not only for us, but for the sin of the whole world.

I said you were covered by His blood, and you said you were saved by Christ. Thus denying you were saved through His blood.
Now you admit "one of" the means of your salvation was His blood. Make up your mind.

Next you claim that proclaim Jesus is the means of salvation is false teaching. No, your denial is false teaching, as you have now admitted. (Christ's blood was [one of] the means of your salvation!!)

Next you falsely claim I did not support my view from scripture, apparently claiming 1 John 2:2 was not cited.

And finally you claim that Jesus is not the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath. Your view remains bogus.

 

[Van]

Hilasmos: This word occurs two times, once in 1 John 2:2 and once in 1 John 4:10. Jesus Christ is the means and only means of satisfying God’s holiness and appeasing His holy wrath.

Jesus is the means of salvation, the propitiation of God's wrath.

 

[Yeshua1]

Martin, I am not the one who denies Jesus is the means of salvation, you are. How were you saved from God's wrath? You do something very good? You prayed the right prayer? Or were you covered by the blood of the Lamb?

Jesus is our propitiation or means of salvation/ Quite simple really.

Was that blood intended by God to save all sinners, or to save some?

 

[Yeshua1]

I see lots of name calling and insult hurling, but still nothing to refute the fact Jesus is the means of salvation, and not only for us, but for the sin of the whole world.

I said you were covered by His blood, and you said you were saved by Christ. Thus denying you were saved through His blood.
Now you admit "one of" the means of your salvation was His blood. Make up your mind.

Next you claim that proclaim Jesus is the means of salvation is false teaching. No, your denial is false teaching, as you have now admitted. (Christ's blood was [one of] the means of your salvation!!)

Next you falsely claim I did not support my view from scripture, apparently claiming 1 John 2:2 was not cited.

And finally you claim that Jesus is not the propitiation or means of salvation from God's wrath. Your view remains bogus.

Means and Propiation are not to be used interchangable fashion, and Jesus used the means of the Cross and His death a s a ransom for many, not the all!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hilasmos: This word occurs two times, once in 1 John 2:2 and once in 1 John 4:10. Jesus Christ is the means and only means of satisfying God’s holiness and appeasing His holy wrath.

Jesus is the means of salvation, the propitiation of God's wrath.

Neither 1 John 2:2 nor 1 John 4:8 speak of the Lord Jesus as being the 'means of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does speak through John about this matter. 'And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son.......' As what? As the means of salvation? No! '......[as] Saviour of the world' (1 John 4:14). [Note: the word 'as' does not appear in the Greek text. The Father sent the Son, the Saviour of the world]

Now what is all this about? Is it just a matter of semantics? I don't believe it is. Van is presenting to us a lesser Christ, one who is a mere cipher for God's salvific activities. This way lies Unitarianism, the belief that the Lord Jesus is some sort of lesser being used by God to carry out His designs. This is false.

In John 11:23-27, the Lord Jesus tells Martha, '"Your brother will rise again."
Martha said to Him, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day........"' Martha was a good Jew. She had read Daniel 12:2. She knew that the dead were going to rise at some point in time.

But then the Lord Jesus said to her, "And just who do you think is going to do that? It is I who raise the dead; I am the One behind it all! '......"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though He may die, he shall live, and whoever lives and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"' I do not believe it would have done for Martha to say, "I believe You are the means of resurrection, and the means of life." The Bible says, 'In Him was life....' (John 1:4). Nor is He the means of light. He is, 'the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world' (John 1:9). Jesus Christ is all these things. He is true God, exalted above all, and by making Him the mere 'means' of anything, we are committing a falsehood and a blasphemy.

I want to move now to the other error that Van is constantly promoting: that Christ is the 'means of salvation' for all people, but actually saves no one because the Father effectively vets them before 'transferring' them into Christ. Once again, this is a dreadful blasphemy against the Lord Jesus, and it is also the almost exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that God the Father has given, in eternity past, a people to Christ. 'Just as He [the Father] chose us in Him [the Son] before the foundation of the world......' (Ephesians 1:4). Christ has redeemed every single one of those people (John 6:39; 10:27-30; 17:2, 6). Not one of them will be lost. When they repent and trust in Christ, they are justified (declared righteous) by God and transferred, not into Christ (they were in Him before the foundation of the world) but into 'the kingdom of the Son of His love' (Colossians 1:13-14); that is, into the kingdom of God., being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14).

[N.B. I have twice used the word 'blasphemy' in this post. I have thought long and hard before doing so, but I cannot find another word. If the Mods feel that it is inappropriate, then it is for them to delete it. I bow to their judgement and am reporting my own post for that reason]

 

[Yeshua1]

Neither 1 John 2:2 nor 1 John 4:8 speak of the Lord Jesus as being the 'means of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does speak through John about this matter. 'And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son.......' As what? As the means of salvation? No! '......[as] Saviour of the world' (1 John 4:14). [Note: the word 'as' does not appear in the Greek text. The Father sent the Son, the Saviour of the world]

Now what is all this about? Is it just a matter of semantics? I don't believe it is. Van is presenting to us a lesser Christ, one who is a mere cipher for God's salvific activities. This way lies Unitarianism, the belief that the Lord Jesus is some sort of lesser being used by God to carry out His designs. This is false.

In John 11:23-27, the Lord Jesus tells Martha, '"Your brother will rise again."
Martha said to Him, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day........"' Martha was a good Jew. She had read Daniel 12:2. She knew that the dead were going to rise at some point in time.

But then the Lord Jesus said to her, "And just who do you think is going to do that? It is I who raise the dead; I am the One behind it all! '......"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though He may die, he shall live, and whoever lives and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"' I do not believe it would have done for Martha to say, "I believe You are the means of resurrection, and the means of life." The Bible says, 'In Him was life....' (John 1:4). Nor is He the means of light. He is, 'the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world' (John 1:9). Jesus Christ is all these things. He is true God, exalted above all, and by making Him the mere 'means' of anything, we are committing a falsehood and a blasphemy.

I want to move now to the other error that Van is constantly promoting: that Christ is the 'means of salvation' for all people, but actually saves no one because the Father effectively vets them before 'transferring' them into Christ. Once again, this is a dreadful blasphemy against the Lord Jesus, and it is also the almost exact opposite of what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that God the Father has given, in eternity past, a people to Christ. 'Just as He [the Father] chose us in Him [the Son] before the foundation of the world......' (Ephesians 1:4). Christ has redeemed every single one of those people (John 6:39; 10:27-30; 17:2, 6). Not one of them will be lost. When they repent and trust in Christ, they are justified (declared righteous) by God and transferred, not into Christ (they were in Him before the foundation of the world) but into 'the kingdom of the Son of His love' (Colossians 1:13-14); that is, into the kingdom of God., being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14).

[N.B. I have twice used the word 'blasphemy' in this post. I have thought long and hard before doing so, but I cannot find another word. If the Mods feel that it is inappropriate, then it is for them to delete it. I bow to their judgement and am reporting my own post for that reason]

Van does seem to have some "interesting" viewpoints on salvation, maybe in his issues against Calvinism, as developed some strange theology of hos own?