What A Waste

[Shortandy]

This past week I had lunch with a man who is known as a Regional Consultant in Georgia Baptist life. I am a first time pastor and he wanted to get to know me a little and just bring me up to speed on how I could use him and the GBC in my ministry.

In his words he is a "general doctor"...there to offer help and remedy when he can but if he can't his job is to find me the "specialist."

Now please correct me if I am wrong but isn't this just a middle-man? We pay this guy a pretty nice salary and give him a blackberry and lap-top and car so he can get pastors and churches in contact with the people that we really need to talk to.

To be honest I think this is a wast of money that Baptist could be using for missions or new churches.

Anyone else have a thought?

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Churches are businesses, businesses need consultants and the ability to network. I have heard "corporate" used here to describe the current church, therefore keeping with that model, it would be something worth funding.

 

[Shortandy]

Churches are businesses, businesses need consultants and the ability to network. I have heard "corporate" used here to describe the current church, therefore keeping with that model, it would be something worth funding.

Churches are not organizations but organisms my friend. Now I will agree with you in part because some people do treat them like businesses. Pastors act like CEO's and Deacons like a board of trustees but that doesn't make it right or biblical.

So biblically...is this poor use of funds? I wonder.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Churches are organisms but they are also organizations. The Bible talks about the organizational set up of a church with Pastors/elders and Deacons. But I digress.

Would you have known about the various ministries of the Georgia Baptist Convention without him? Maybe you already know all about what the convention can help you in. Personally, I like when someone whose salary I pay throught the CP takes the time to know me and my church and how what they have can help me accomplish what God has placed on my heart for the church I serve.

Sure that maybe a middle man, but anyone who asks how can I serve you and your church is a pretty good guy in my book and well worth the funds he is paid.

Do people come to you for Biblical knowledge when they have a Bible already? If so, you are a middle man, too. :laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Churches are not organizations but organisms my friend. Now I will agree with you in part because some people do treat them like businesses. Pastors act like CEO's and Deacons like a board of trustees but that doesn't make it right or biblical.

So biblically...is this poor use of funds? I wonder.

I do not wonder, I know it is a waste of money. Missions, helping the needy, and spreading the Gospel is charged to the local church, as they are lead by the Lord. The last thing a local church needs is some slick middle man to solve problems. I believe we have the Holy Spirit to solve problems.

The comparison of a local church to a business is at best an insult to every Christian and I will keep to myself what the worst is. We are not here to make a profit, make decisions which bring in more money, or step on church members or the needy because it makes "business sense." With the corruption, greed, and worldly mindset that corporations have exhibited as of late, it is beyond belief that the mindset could be compared to a local New Testement church. I cannot think of many things further away from the Lord than the prevailing greed in our business community.

There is nothing wrong with a church spending money wisely, as lead by the Lord. However, no one has any business being in a position of church leadership with such an outlook as stated above. As a matter of fact, I would hope the quality of church leadership would be a cut above the recent failures we have seen in the corporate world, ignoring the spiritual aspect.

 

[Shortandy]

Churches are organisms but they are also organizations. The Bible talks about the organizational set up of a church with Pastors/elders and Deacons. But I digress.

Would you have known about the various ministries of the Georgia Baptist Convention without him? Maybe you already know all about what the convention can help you in. Personally, I like when someone whose salary I pay throught the CP takes the time to know me and my church and how what they have can help me accomplish what God has placed on my heart for the church I serve.

Sure that maybe a middle man, but anyone who asks how can I serve you and your church is a pretty good guy in my book and well worth the funds he is paid.

Do people come to you for Biblical knowledge when they have a Bible already? If so, you are a middle man, too. :laugh:

You made it personal. I never implied he was a bad buy with impure intentions. This isn't even about him peronally but this is about the concept the ideology behind his position.

A phone call, email or old fashion letter could have revealed the same information that this gentelman revealed to me. He even admitted that having a GBC directory would put me in contact with all the specialist out there.

And that salary that he and other consultants are getting could go to missions or we could be paying these guys to start new churches in our state.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Churches are not organizations but organisms my friend. Now I will agree with you in part because some people do treat them like businesses. Pastors act like CEO's and Deacons like a board of trustees but that doesn't make it right or biblical.

So biblically...is this poor use of funds? I wonder.

I wasn't speaking biblically, because biblically churches aren't to be corporations focussed on numbers and production.

 

[preachinjesus]

I am a first time pastor and he wanted to get to know me a little and just bring me up to speed on how I could use him and the GBC in my ministry.

Wow, someone that wants to use the resources of our state convention. I applaud you sir! Just give me a second because you're one of the first I've heard of that wants this kind of stuff...

In his words he is a "general doctor"...there to offer help and remedy when he can but if he can't his job is to find me the "specialist."

This is what I've heard from others before too. The specialists are people who deal with issues like Sunday School/Groups ministry, students, college, etc.

Now please correct me if I am wrong but isn't this just a middle-man? We pay this guy a pretty nice salary and give him a blackberry and lap-top and car so he can get pastors and churches in contact with the people that we really need to talk to.

Ah, well you've hit a pretty significant nail on the head. Lots of us look at the behemoth in Duluth and wondered how it communicates our convention's priorities to other Christians and the outside world. Its an embarasment to say the least.

Then we get to the various agency workers and consultants. This brings up another issue all together. Frankly, I'm not a fan of anything that happens in Nashville. I believe the SBC would be well served to sell off the buildings that house the Executive Committee and ERLC, disband the organizations, and give the money to missions and church planting. At the state level there is a need for good servants of God. We have plenty of other conventions that do so in less lavish environs than in Georgia.

I think the guy you met with understands his role pretty well. I can appreciate that. He knows that he can point you in the right direction, but probably isn't used to having a spry young pastor wanting to find this kind of stuff out. Maybe continuing to develop a relationship and allow him to resource you to appropriate minsitries/specialists is a good task.

There are some really good people who work in our state convention. I know plenty of them. They earnestly desire to serve others and I commend that! There are also some who are hiding from God and His distinct calling on their lives. We need to understand the divergence here.

Its like any big organization. I just shudder to think what Christ would say to us (and to me!) if He came back and looked at our giant monoliths to denominational crapulence and then turned to see the homeless living across the street, in the same city, and the need across the world for the Gospel.

If our convention really wants a "Gospel Resurrgence" we probably need to start by getting back to basics in theology (check!), passion, appearence, and process.

Imagine if we downgraded our lavish facilities to a simple strip mall that has been abandoned because of the recession had over $100 million in cash...imagaine the Gospel impact!

Anyone else have a thought?

Just a few...

 

[corndogggy]

Imagine if we downgraded our lavish facilities to a simple strip mall that has been abandoned because of the recession had over $100 million in cash...imagaine the Gospel impact!

Imagine the good you could do, how many people you could actually help, if these ridiculous facilities were never built in the first place and there weren't any well paid "Sunday School consultant" jobs. :BangHead:

 

[preachinjesus]

well, that might require an evaluation of who we are trying to reach and who we are trying to impress...

 

[Tom Bryant]

I never intimated that you thought he was a bad guy. I just pointed out that he was there to help you. Maybe you didn't need his help, then that's fine. You didn't need his help. I am glad for you. But I have always been thankful when a denom guy has contacted me and asked how he could be of service.

 

[Salty]

To be honest I think this is a wast of money that Baptist could be using for missions or new churches. quote]

Well, you could consider an alternative. Leave the SBC and just work with independent Mission agcys. Wait - they also have "middle men"

I am thankful for our DOM and the assistance he is able to provide.

Salty

 

[just-want-peace]

Seems I read a story about some guys who were arguing along these same lines; wasted resources that could have been better used "for the poor"!

Mar 14:5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

Also, you may want to be a little careful in your assessment of the worth of other's works for Him.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Salty]

Seems I read a story...

JWP, you said it much better than I did:thumbs:

 

[Shortandy]

To be honest I think this is a wast of money that Baptist could be using for missions or new churches. quote]

Well, you could consider an alternative. Leave the SBC and just work with independent Mission agcys. Wait - they also have "middle men"

I am thankful for our DOM and the assistance he is able to provide.

Salty

Or I could take the third choice and question what we do and seek better ways to use resources and do ministry. Thats all this is about...just wondering if there is a better way to spend money brother.

 

[Shortandy]

Seems I read a story about some guys who were arguing along these same lines; wasted resources that could have been better used "for the poor"!

Also, you may want to be a little careful in your assessment of the worth of other's works for Him.

And you might want to be more careful how you use scritpure. Are you calling me Judas my friend?:BangHead: Asking questions and making assesments is what lead to the Convention anyway. If we don't challenge the status-quo then we can become comfortable and sink into laziness or hide behind tradition. Just because its in place doesn't mean its best. Don't be afraid of questions and statements....address them! Give pros and cons. Back it up with scripture.

 

[Allan]

And you might want to be more careful how you use scritpure. Are you calling me Judas my friend?:BangHead:

It seems, per reading much of your new posts, that you quick with your quips brother.

No, JWP was not calling you "Judas" but said he remembers remembers reading a story... In other words - don't be so hasty minimulize what you don't fully understand. Nothing condesending in the remark either but that their is alot in what is done that goes beyond just giving you a phone number.

Asking questions and making assesments is what lead to the Convention anyway. If we don't challenge the status-quo then we can become comfortable and sink into laziness or hide behind tradition. Just because its in place doesn't mean its best. Don't be afraid of questions and statements....address them! Give pros and cons. Back it up with scripture.

Now see, I agree with you here. But instead of bring this up here first you might want to sit down with your 'middle man' and find out what all his job entails. And THEN evaluate whether or not it is really necessary instead of asking for opinions from many who most likely haven't got a clue as to what is really involved. If you can figure out a better way to do what they are doing, and all the networking they do, without actaully having someone do it - Go For It!!

I am quite sure they will praise you for it. What they do is a pretty much thankless job, thankless that is until you need something.

 

[sag38]

There have been a lot of times that a state convention has helped me when I sought out the help. But, I don't think they have ever sought me out on a personal level. I think it's great that this convention is trying to connect on a more personal level with churches and pastors.