What about Christian music?

Yes, you are right - it is complex, which is why we shouldn't hold so dogmatically to silly assumptions like all music is created equal.

 

Answer: No.

Think of it this way - is candy forbidden by God's Word? No, of course not. But is it wise or good to eat only candy? No, of course not; it would be very unwise to do so. Just as it would be unwise (and rather childish) if our musical production or consumption progressed no further than chopsticks.

 

Keith, you could never convince me that chopsticks is superior to a piece by Bach. In this example, it is not merely in the eye of the beholder; it is an objective fact. Now if you want to compare a piece by Bach vs. one by Mozart, then yes, there will be a great deal of subjectivity in such comparison.

But what I have shown in my silly example is that some music is inherently better than other music. And so this belief that all music is created equal is simply not true. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps one must consider the target audience before one claims things like Bach is "superior" or "inherently better". Despite Baby Genius' and their various music CDs and videos, the simple fact is that some children and adults prefer different types and styles of music. Which is superior, Country music or Pop? What about Jazz or The Blues or Bluegrass? How can one say that one is "superior"? Ahhh, but Bach must be superior to them all. Why? What objective evidence can you give to support the allegation that Bach is superior to any of these (including chopsticks).

My post was not intended to challenge the beauty of Bach verses the crudeness of Chopsticks (by my ears). I will readily agree that Bach, or Mozart, or even Bluegrass, can be more complex in composition than Chopsticks. But we might need to discuss the "superior" thing a bit more. For instance, I vaguely recall Victor Borge doing a very complex rendition of Chopsticks that would have made even Bach envious.

 

Yes, you are right - it is complex, which is why we shouldn't hold so dogmatically to silly assumptions like all music is created equal. </font>[/QUOTE]So is Victor Borge's Chopsticks inferior since it is still Chopsticks or is it now superiror because it is a more complex composition?

 

Answer: No.

Think of it this way - is candy forbidden by God's Word? No, of course not. But is it wise or good to eat only candy? No, of course not; it would be very unwise to do so. Just as it would be unwise (and rather childish) if our musical production or consumption progressed no further than chopsticks. </font>[/QUOTE]But we can usually tell when candy is candy. And now you are talking merely about what you say is bad or inferior music. What happened to the original issue of Christian music?

When is music ungodly? When is music godly? No one has given an answer to my questions:
1. Who will decide what music is Christian and/or godly?
2. On what basis will that be decided?

 

You're dealing specifically with worship music, and I agree that ultimately what matters is the heart. But that doesn't mean the outward form is completely irrelevant. Like I said earlier, I don't know what the objective standard is, but I know that it is not completely relative as you are putting it. All I am saying is that it is not 100% subjectivity. And I was addressing music in general (not specifically worship music) to show that all music is not created equal.

On modern music - I don't condemn it; in fact, if you looked at my CD rack, the majority of it is modern (i.e. - written within the last half century). But there is so much music out there, and a lot of is useless. When judging modern music, I think it is helpful to imagine 300 years from now - what music from today will most likely stand the test of time and still be used and recognized as "classic".

Thanks for the welcome, Ady. I probably won't post here much, just on a few selected threads.

Regards,

 

Keith, you're right - I don't expect my 6-year old to really appreciate Bach or Mozart. Right now, she enjoys silly songs like the ones from the Jonah (Veggietales) soundtrack. Now when she is 25, and all she is still listening to is the Jonah soundtrack, then that would be kind of silly and childish, don't you think? Like I said, even simple music serves a purpose.

As for styles of music, I don't think they are very helpful in judging superiority. I think each composition should be judged on its own. I think a helpful smell test is will it stand the test of time? Think 300 years from now - what will be considered "classic"? I know that it still a subjective test, but it is not 100% subjective, as I'm sure we could all agree that Brittney Spears' music will not stand the test of time vs., let's say, some Beattles' songs or U2 songs, to give a more recent example from the pop/rock genre.

Bottom line, I don't think one genre is inherently superior, but some genres are more conducive to producing superior music than other genres. For instance, I think any jazz piece has a much better chance of standing the test of time compared to a typical sugary-boy-band pop song.

 

Marcia, all analogies break down somewhere, don't they? I've never said that judging music is 100% objective, or even mostly objective. What I contend is that it is not 100% subjective.

I don't think there is music that is inherently "Christian" so I don't really have answers to your other questions. But while we are on the topic, it has been stated earlier that there are only "Christian lyrics". But what does that mean? How do we know if lyrics are Christian or not? Example - the song Cats 'n the Cradle by Harry Chapin provides more instruction to the soul than many sugary pop songs from the CCM marketing machine. But Chapin's song isn't "Christian" as we typically think; I'm not sure if Chapin even claimed to be a Christian. But the lyrics of that song are very good, better than most CCM these days.

 

BTW, here is a link to an article that talks about the "bar room" myth:

http://www.worldmag.com/displayarticle.cfm?id=9831

 

Quote: "The bar room tunes thing is an urban myth."

Not true. Just get out your baptist hymnal and see how many are set to "old english folk tune" or "Old Irish folk tune" or "Old German folk tune". There's tons of them.

 

One other thing to go along with this thread. One Christian artist I listen to has worshipful lyrics, and other songs where the lyrics don't mention God, but are good, positive lyrics. My father would argue that the songs that refer to God are good, but the other songs are just "worldly".

Why does ALL music have to have God in the song? Can't Christians enjoy songs that don't mention God, but are not garbage?

Wouldn't this be like judging different football games on whether the commentators preach during the game, calling one game where God is not mentioned "worldly" and the other game where there is preaching in between the commentary "holy"? I believe we are to live our lives to worship and honor God, even in the hobbies we have and the different things we enjoy (as long as it is morally acceptable) where "God" is not mentioned during the activity or hobby.

 

Marcia, all analogies break down somewhere, don't they? I've never said that judging music is 100% objective, or even mostly objective. What I contend is that it is not 100% subjective.

I don't think there is music that is inherently "Christian" so I don't really have answers to your other questions. But while we are on the topic, it has been stated earlier that there are only "Christian lyrics". But what does that mean? How do we know if lyrics are Christian or not? &lt;snip&gt; </font>[/QUOTE]Hi, Andy,
I didn't address lyrics because the Opening statement in this thread specifically was addressing music, not lyrics.

I don't claim that any song, lyrics or music, is Christian. The closest to true Christian lyrics, imo, would be words straight from the NT put to music. Those would be Christian lyrics. Otherwise, I don't think Christian music exists.

We have so-called "praise" music, and sometimes the music is nice and uplifting, but the words are shallow. Also, I strongly dislike singing the same praise song over and over as is the practice in many churches.

 

I would say that lyrics can either operate out of a Biblical worldview or not (or many times it's a mixed bag). For instance, I think the lyrics of Cats 'n the Cradle generally convey a Biblical worldview, even if the author had no intention of such (unbelievers many times unwittingly borrow capital from the Biblical mindset). In contrast, a "Christian" song may mention the names of Jesus or God, but the overall message of the song is sometimes patently un-Biblical.

Marica, I agree with you about the repetitive praise choruses - one of the worst offenders is "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever" which, after singing it a few times over, makes me start muttering, "We've Been Singing this Song Forever."

 

I disagree that "rock", perverted or not, fits the qualifications for music. It and all its baser derivatives don't belong in the churches.

 

I'm not a musical historian, but I don't think "folk tune" is necessarily the same as a typical "bar room" song that would have been sung in European taverns several hundred years ago. A bar room song is the typical carousing type song where people are shouting at the top of their lungs with their mugs held high. To be honest, do any of the old hymns have such a tune written to them? I don't have a hymnal handy, but the hymn "What Child is This" was written to the old English "folk tune" called "Greensleeves". I can't imagine that a bunch of drunks really caroused with the tune of that song.

The whole "bar room" myth is usually perpetuated by those who are trying to claim that all music is created equal - i.e., the line of thinking like goes this: "Since Martin Luther wrote 'A Mighty Fortress' to the tune of a bar room song, then it is equally legitimate and just as good to put the lyrics of Holy, Holy, Holy to some head-banging heavy metal song and sing it in church, if that's what people want." I actually had a Pastor tell me this one time.

Check out the article I posted earlier regarding the bar room myth.

 

Webdog, yes, I think Christians can righteously enjoy music that conveys a Biblical worldview. And that conveyance doesn't need to be overtly religious either. Just like all paintings don't need to depict some religious theme or event; e.g., many good paintings simply show the handiwork of God in nature.

 

Under what biblical pretense?