What about Prophets in todays world??

[Link]

Tamborine Lady wrote,
**In other words, if someone gives a prophecy that says a cetain man is to divorce his wife, we know right away that it is not from God, because that is not what Jesus said.**

What if the man's wife was originally his brother's wife, and his brother divorced her, and he married her?

I know one of man considered a prophet who encountered a community leader who was in this situation, and he said to the man about his wife, "It is unlawful for thee to have her."

 

[tamborine lady]

Hey Link, I noticed that we posted our last posts at exactly the same time!! Halfway around the world, each thinking basicly the same thing!

Must be that Holy Ghost at work again.

Although I do like your answer better! Praise the Lord!!

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

Well then Jesus didn't consider him married to the second woman.

Jesus looks at marriage a whole different way than we do! That's why John the Baptist lost his head, he told Herod the truth about having his brothers wife.

Selah,

Tam

 

[cojosh]

Tam,

I was referring to 2 Thes. 2:3, this portion is dealing with the second coming of Christ not the Rapture. The antichrist will be revealed after we are called out. Read the rest of the chapter.

Please don't disregard scripture.

I was referring to an individual that would seek after prophesies before consulting God's Word.

 

[cojosh]

Link, don't be troubled. I would not want anything I write to trouble you but to encourage.

** The Holy Spirit has come for one purpose. To point to Jesus Christ. The Bible is Jesus Christ in bookform.**

Hebrews 10:7 THEN SAID I, LO, I COME(IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME),TO DO THY WILL, O GOD.

This is also in Psalms 40:7-8 and is speaking of the Christ. What book can we safely say that speaks of Him and His obedience to God the Father. THE BIBLE. All 66 books of it point to Christ.

Read the first chapter of the Gospel of John.
Verse one reads:
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.

Verse 14 states:
And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

The WORD represents Christ. When we read the Holy Scripture we are reading about HIM.


You said:
**John wrote in the Bible that he did not suppose that if all the acts of Christ were written down, the world could not contain the books. How then could the person of Christ be condensed into ‘book form’? **

It is true that if all the acts of Christ were written down, the world could not contain them. I agree with this. I don't believe the Bible contains "all the works of Christ", just the ones that God wanted to reveal to us. As for your question, I cannot answer that, but the Bible is clear that Christ represents God's Word.

**Well, if we open the book up and read it, it tells us that prophecy is one of the gifts of the Spirit. So we should accept what the Bible teaches about prophecy instead of using human reasoning to say that if we have the Bible, we don’t need one of the things the Bible tells us to desire. The Bible says to covet to prophesy. So if we respect the Bible, we need to obey this teaching.**

I was referring to an individual that was seeking for guidance in prophesies rather than searching the scripture. I thought I made that clear. I apologize if I didn't.


**However, God can do what He wants and if He wants to speak through a prophecy to someone who does not read the Bible, that is His sovereign choice, whether it makes sense to us or not.**

He could, but I doubt if He would.

**If you asked enough people, you will probably find people who will tell you that the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sin, and did not just say ‘read the Bible.’**

It depends on how you view the Bible. If it is truly the Word of God, then it is how God communicates with His children. The Holy Spirit will exhort, encourage, guide, convict us to obey the scriptures. Our job is to hide them in our hearts so we can have a loving fellowship with the Holy Spirit, Christ our Savior and God the Father.

 

[tamborine lady]

Cojosh said:
I was referring to 2 Thes. 2:3, this portion is dealing with the second coming of Christ not the Rapture. The antichrist will be revealed after we are called out. Read the rest of the chapter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Bless your heart, you must be reading different bible than mine, because, when I read mine, I come up with the fact that the second coming is the rapture!!

But believe whatever you will.

Tam

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Cojosh said:
I was referring to 2 Thes. 2:3, this portion is dealing with the second coming of Christ not the Rapture. The antichrist will be revealed after we are called out. Read the rest of the chapter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Bless your heart, you must be reading different bible than mine, because, when I read mine, I come up with the fact that the second coming is the rapture!!

But believe whatever you will.

Tam

Tam, the term "Second Coming" does not occur in the Bible, nor does the term Rapture, of course. Premillenialists use the term "Second Coming" to refer to a two part coming, the Rapture of the Saints of 2 Thess. 2:3, followed 7 years later by the " power and great glory" of Luke 21:27.

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
Tam, the term "Second Coming" does not occur in the Bible, nor does the term Rapture, of course. Premillenialists use the term "Second Coming" to refer to a two part coming, the Rapture of the Saints of 2 Thess. 2:3, followed 7 years later by the " power and great glory" of Luke 21:27.

Actually, that doesn't include post-tribulational premillennialists. For them, there is only one future coming.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by StefanM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
Tam, the term "Second Coming" does not occur in the Bible, nor does the term Rapture, of course. Premillenialists use the term "Second Coming" to refer to a two part coming, the Rapture of the Saints of 2 Thess. 2:3, followed 7 years later by the " power and great glory" of Luke 21:27.

Actually, that doesn't include post-tribulational premillennialists. For them, there is only one future coming. </font>[/QUOTE]Point taken.

 

[tamborine lady]

So what has all this to do with whether there are prophets or not??
Tam

 

[John of Japan]

Whoa, you're throwing a lot at me here, Link. I grant it that you've got some good points, and I respect that you've evidently put a lot of thought into this, but I don't have time to answer everything. I'll deal with what I can here.

Originally posted by Link:

“Word of Wisdom” and “Word of Knowledge” are gifts. Where does the Bible say that He stopped doing so? Can’t the Holy Spirit help give someone called before governors or kings the words to say these days like He did before? Can’t He help people preach? Haven’t you ever heard of or experienced someone speaking under the anointing who spoke to a specific situation, perhaps without even realizing that he was doing so? For example, when a preacher says something that really hits the nail on the head in a personal situation, or when someone prays for someone else and prays about a situation they have not been told about?

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I believe a "word of wisdom" or a "word of knowledge" simply to be advice, not words given directly by the Holy Spirit. The Greek for both of these is logos, which can simply mean a message, rather than rhema, which usually means a specific word.

Yes, of course the Holy spirit can help someone called before authorities to know what to say, help a preacher know what to preach, help someone to pray for a specific situation, etc. The latter two have happened to me. But my point is, this does not have to be in the exact words of a revelation, but can be simply in impressions and leading. I have never had specific words given by the Holy Spirit.

This opens a real can of worms since the doctrine of the canon is not a scriptural doctrine per se. The Bible doesn’t give us a list of books to be in the canon.

Secondly, what do you say to my argument, before, that the Bible shows us that not all revelation from God is in the Bible. The Bible speaks positively of many prophecies that are not recorded in the Bible, that were truly from God. If those were not added to the Bible, why would a modern prophecy have to be?

You are right about the can of worms. If we get on the issue of the canon, we'll hijack the thread.

As for your next point, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I am a dispensationalist, which means I have no problem at all with what you are saying. I don't believe that anyone is adding to the Bible in this present dispensation simply because we don't need added revelation. The words of the Bible are completely sufficient for our spiritual needs in the church age.

But even if you do hold to an imminent return, that still does not argue against prophecy. If ‘imminent return’ is a Biblical doctrine, it was a Biblical doctrine when Paul was ministering. That did not stop people from making predictive prophecies in his day. It did not stop John from making predictive prophecies. Where is the Bible verse that teaches that Jesus’ return became imminent when John wrote the last word in Revelation? The Bible does not teach that. If there could be predictive prophecies when the first century Christians were expecting Christ, then there can be predictive prophecies today.

Once again, I'm a dispensationalist. I have no problem with there being both a previous dispensation and a future one which had predictive prophecies, while the church age does not. You'll just have to allow me to agree to disagree here, since if we get into the whole issue of dispensationalism we'll hijack the thread.

Let me ask something here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have a wide open view about this. Do you believe that there can be false prophecies? I'm sure you do. How then do you believe we should limit prophecy? Or should we? How can you tell a false prophet?

For many of us non-Charismatics, what ruins the whole thing is the great abuse in Charismatic circles of this doctrine. I have read some really bizarre stuff by Charismatics claiming to be prophets. Does this embarrass you?

 

[John of Japan]

Just didn't want Cojosh to get picked on too much.

Actually, I'm the culprit. It all started with my use of an imminent rapture to argue against predictive prophecy in this age.

 

[DHK]

The canon has been closed. That I say emphatically, dogmatically. Any person therefore, making a prophecy today is a false prophet by default. Prophecy has ceased. Words of knowledge have ceased. The canon of revelation was closed with the Book of Revelation being completed ca. 98 A.D. Consider then, what the Charismatics have in common with others:

Roman Catholics:
Roman Catholics have three different types of Revelation:
1. Primary Revelation: the Scriptures.
2. Secondary Revelation: Disciplinary tradition--that area of traditiion where they get their extra-biblical doctrines such as purgatory, infallibility of the pope, the immaculate conception, the perpetual virginity of Mary, praying to the dead, etc. Those unbiblical and extra-biblical come from this area of "Discipinary Tradition"
3. Personal Revelation--This is an area where Catholics feel right at home with the Charismatics--Revelation is on going. In the Catholic Church people still have visions. Church Councils and Popes still bring in new doctrine because revelation is still open-ended. An open-ended revelation is the mark of a cult.

Mormonism:
Both Joseph Smith and Bringham Young spoke in tongues. The operation of the spiritual gifts is part of their statement of faith. Mormons speak in tongues today. They also believe in an open-ended revelation, as is evidenced by the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, all of which are just as important as the Bible.

Christian Science: founder--Mary Baker Eddy
--belief: extra biblical revelation.
She believed that she was God's prophet for her day and age. She wrote: "Science and Health with Keys to the Scripture." This God revealed to her. She was only echoing the very words of God (so she was saying).

Jehovah's Witnesses:
Charles Taze Russel believed in an open-ended revelation, and the Watchtower organization still does. Who interprets the Bible for all the J.W.'s Like the Catholic' magesterium, the "magesterium" of the J.W.'s is the leadership of the Watchtower which controls the interpretation of the Bible for the J.W.'s It is open-ended revelation, with new revelation in the Watchtower magazine being revealed all the time.

The Worldwide Church of God by Herbert W. Armstrong.
Sun Myung Moon, etc.

Virtually every cult that has ever started, has started with new and extra biblical revelation. It is the mark of a cult. And that includes the Charismatic movement.
DHK

 

[Link]

DHK wrote,
**The canon has been closed. That I say emphatically, dogmatically. Any person therefore, making a prophecy today is a false prophet by default. Prophecy has ceased.***

Yout contradict scripture. The book of Revelation predicts prophets who will prophesy. The two witnesses will prophesy. Therefore, the continuance of prophecy does not contradict scripture. You either have to allow that the canon is not closed to accomodate the two witnesses, or else recognize that the continuance of prophecy does not contradict the idea of a closed canon.

And you have not answered the point I have made repeatedly. The Bible is clear on the fact that not all prophecies from God were included in scripture during the era when scripture was written. I can give you a list of examples if you are interested. If past prophecies did not have to be added to the canon if they were genuine, why would modern prophecies.

DHK wrote,
**Consider then, what the Charismatics have in common with others: **
and went on to talk about Roman Catholics, Mormons, etc.

So what. Witches drink coffee. If you drink coffee does that make you a witch. Muslims believe in one God. Does that mean you should not believe in one God because Muslims are monotheists? Zoorastrians writings confirm the existence of angels. Should you believe that htere are no angels in order not to be like the Zoorastrians.

Mormons believe in adult baptism, if I am not mistaken. Should you stop believing in adult baptism because Mormons believe in it?

The issue is what does the Bible teach. A lot of false groups believe in certain things that are Biblical. We should not throw out Biblical doctrine so as not to be like a heretical group.

The Bible teaches that the gift of prophecy is given to the church. Certainly those of a dispensational, futurist eschatological bent should accept the continence of prophecy into the end of the age, since the Bible speaks of future prophets and prophecies that are yet to be made.


**Mormonism:
Both Joseph Smith and Bringham Young spoke in tongues. The operation of the spiritual gifts is part of their statement of faith. Mormons speak in tongues today. They also believe in an open-ended revelation, as is evidenced by the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price, all of which are just as important as the Bible. **


They also say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Should you reject that statement simply because the Mormons claim it. If Mormons confess to believe in something that is Biblical, we should not reject it because the Mormons happen to believe in it.

There are truths in a lot of false religions. We should not reject Biblical truth so as to be different from the pagans.

**Virtually every cult that has ever started, has started with new and extra biblical revelation. It is the mark of a cult. And that includes the Charismatic movement.**

I thought one of the marks of a cult was to reject Biblical doctrine. The fact that the Spirit gives the gift of prophecy and other gifts of the Spirit to the church is a Biblical doctrine. I can show you the verses in I Corinthians 12 if you do not believe me.

Link

 

[cojosh]

There are many Christians who believe that the gift of Prophecy was for the early church and that it went out with the Apostles. It was an Apostolic gift like the gift of healing, etc.
DHK put out some fantastic info. All those cults esteem their leaders teachings to be greater than Holy Scripture. Then they twist the Bible to support their ideas. There's a lot of Christians as well as non-converts following after false teachings, false prophecies, etc. and it's because they don't have a proper view of the Bible and the importance of allowing it to be the authority over "teachings of men". It's a dangerous area. They get decieved.

 

[John of Japan]

So now that we have that out of our system (I hope), can we get back to are there prophets in this day? My view (and I am not a Charismatic) is that there are forth-telling prophets but not fore-telling prophets. Otherwise, how am I supposed to interpret Eph. 4:11?

 

[prophecynut]

John of Japan, please evaluate article at:

http://www.haydid.org/prophecy.htm

It appears to fit your thinking on the matter. Give us your input.

 

[tamborine lady]

Just so people won't get confused who are just laymen, here is the definitions of 2 important words.

Rhema
A Greek word that means any spoken word having a definite meaning. Romans 10:8 uses "rhema" in place of the more common word "logos."

Logos means the written word of God, the bible.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John of Japan, thanks for explaining about the one future return of Jesus.

My view on prophets is of course a little different than yours. I believe foretelling can still occur; it just has to line up with the written word.

But then again, if we all agreed, there would be no need for boards like this!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[prophecynut]

The nature of the prophetic ministry in Acts involved the following: Leadership, 15:22; Prediction, 11:28, 20:23; Declaration of Divine judgment, 13:11, 28:25-28; Specific directions to the church, 13:11, 15:27; Teaching by means of the exposition of scripture 14:22, 15:32.
The roles of prophet and teacher are linked. This parallels the Old Testament (Daniel 9:2, 2:4), as well as the ministry of Jesus who interpreted the scriptures with authority and power, Lk.24:27. In fact, prophecy in Acts seems to overlap the roles of apostle, leader, and teacher.
Earle Ellis defines the ministry of prophecy thus, "The prophet in Acts is the Lord's instrument, one among several, by whom Jesus leads His church. The prophet is one who makes known the meaning of the Scriptures, exhorts and strengthens the congregation, and instructs the community. The Christian prophet manifests, in the power of the Spirit, the character of his Lord, who is the prophet of the end time."

http://www.lectionarystudies.com/parish/holyspirit5.html

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:

Yout contradict scripture. The book of Revelation predicts prophets who will prophesy. The two witnesses will prophesy. Therefore, the continuance of prophecy does not contradict scripture. You either have to allow that the canon is not closed to accomodate the two witnesses, or else recognize that the continuance of prophecy does not contradict the idea of a closed canon.

Recognize this. When we speak of a closed canon, we speak of those Scriptures which are inspired of God, and no others. In those 66 books, which God chose to inspire are prophecies, lies, historical events, allegories, murders, and even a woman who ate her own child. But it is still inspired of God. Nostradamus made prophecies too; his are not inspired. You may make some too; yours are not inspired. Paul wrote four epistles to the Corinthians; only two were inspired, or written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. When we talk of the canon of Scripture we talk of those books (that revelation of God) which God chose to reveal to man, and inspire. It is the very words of God revealed to man. These are not man's words, but God's. 2Tim.3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable..." It is inspired, that is "God-breathed." God breathed these words through his prophets, his apostles, to us. They are God's Words, not ours.

There are unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible. That is true. Jesus is coming again. He is much more than a prophet (Rev.11). That doesn't nullify the closed canon that God has given for during this dispensation. We are not speaking about the Tribulation, nor are we speaking of the Millennial Kingdom. So why the red herrings?
We have the completed Bible until the rapture takes place. I won't need the Bible in written form in Heaven; I will have Jesus himself, and will sit at his feet instead.

And you have not answered the point I have made repeatedly. The Bible is clear on the fact that not all prophecies from God were included in scripture during the era when scripture was written. I can give you a list of examples if you are interested. If past prophecies did not have to be added to the canon if they were genuine, why would modern prophecies.

Not all the lies of Satan were recorded either, but one of his first ones was. Read Genesis 3. You will find the account of the fall there. Does it say anywhere that all prophecies must be recorded in the Bible? NO! As I said above, not even all of Paul's epistles are recorded in the pages of our Bible. So what. God chose, by His Holy Spirit, what books he wanted, and (didn't want)in our canon. Only those books that are inspired by God are in the Bible and are recognized as Scripture. That is one of the reasons we don't recognize the Apocrypha as Scripture. It wasn't inspired of God. The Hebrews never recognized it, nor the early believers, nor Protestants of any kind--only the Catholics. They are not inspired books, and are to be rejected. God chose only 66 books; the last book being Revelation, and after that the canon was closed. Add to the Bible after that is akin to heresy.

DHK wrote,
**Consider then, what the Charismatics have in common with others: **
and went on to talk about Roman Catholics, Mormons, etc.

So what. Witches drink coffee. If you drink coffee does that make you a witch. Muslims believe in one God. Does that mean you should not believe in one God because Muslims are monotheists? Zoorastrians writings confirm the existence of angels. Should you believe that htere are no angels in order not to be like the Zoorastrians.

non sequitor.
We are talking of revelation and the inspiration of Scriptures as it relates to prophecy--not drinking coffee and witches. So what has all that got to do with the topic at hand? Nothing!

However, R.C.'s, Mormons, and Charismatics all believe that the Bible was not closed with the book of Revelation, and that we still have an open canon. All of them believe the same heresy: that God's revelation is continuing. And it doesn't phase them one iota, that in the OT, when a prophet got just one prophecy wrong, he was executed. It cost him his life. If that was applied today, it would end the Charismatic movement wouldn't it?

Mormons believe in adult baptism, if I am not mistaken. Should you stop believing in adult baptism because Mormons believe in it?

More red herrings. That has more to do with the price of tea in China than it does with God's revelation and prophecy.

The issue is what does the Bible teach. A lot of false groups believe in certain things that are Biblical. We should not throw out Biblical doctrine so as not to be like a heretical group.

No, the issue is what does the Bible teach on matters concerning: prophecy and the canon of Scripture, and inspiration of Scripture.

The Bible teaches that the gift of prophecy is given to the church. Certainly those of a dispensational, futurist eschatological bent should accept the continence of prophecy into the end of the age, since the Bible speaks of future prophets and prophecies that are yet to be made.

The Bible speaks of the gift of prophecy--a gift now ceased--that was present during the apostolic age. It was present during that time because the canon of Scripture wasn't complete. Now that we have the perfect and completed canon or Scriptures, prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge have all ceased. They are no longer needed. All that we need to know is in the pages of what we call the Bible.

**Mormonism:
They also say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Should you reject that statement simply because the Mormons claim it. If Mormons confess to believe in something that is Biblical, we should not reject it because the Mormons happen to believe in it.

You don't know much about Mormonism do you. That is now what they believe. The believe that Jesus is a son, born of a sexual union between god and another goddess from some planet, and that Lucifer was his brother. He in no way is the Son of God that we believe in. He is a demon-inspired caricature of the Jesus of the Bible.
But this is just another red herring.
We are speaking of revelation, and prophecy related to God's Word--thus my quote about the belief of Mormons in believing in an open ended revelation and the spiritual gifts. Stick to the topic.

There are truths in a lot of false religions. We should not reject Biblical truth so as to be different from the pagans.

That is right. Extra Biblical revelation does have pagan roots.

I thought one of the marks of a cult was to reject Biblical doctrine. The fact that the Spirit gives the gift of prophecy and other gifts of the Spirit to the church is a Biblical doctrine. I can show you the verses in I Corinthians 12 if you do not believe me.

The Charismatic movement does reject Biblical doctrine in that they reject the inspiration of the Bible, and the Bible alone as their final authority in all matters of faith and practice. I would consider the rejection of that belief heretical, and the mark of a cult. It is going down the wrong road. It is no different than what Mary Baker Eddy did.
She was "God's prophet" for her age.
DHK

Link [/QB][/QUOTE]