What about shorts?

Oh dear,

Here I go off the deep end, again...

I used to be on a swim team and a diving team when I was younger. We worked, and we worked HARD. Hard enough to prefer cool showers after even though it was snowing outside!

Bathing suits are appropriate wear for swimming, if swimming is what you are going to do. If strutting is what you are going to do, you could wear clothes from neck to ankle and that wouldn't really help a thing!

Scanty swim suits are made for strutting, not swimming.

I have to admit that now, however, at the ripe old age of 54, I don't even own a bathing suit anymore. I cut off old jeans and wear them when we go to the beach, along with a floppy t-shirt for freedom and we go rescue washed up jellyfish, chase the waves going in and out, and explore tidal pools...

My daughters found, as did one or two of the women above, that they felt (and feel) far more modest and comfortable in shorts and a halter top rather than the swim suits of today. However, when they were each on swim team, they wore team suits and worked hard!

As a last comment, I think most of the Christian women I know do prefer the Lands End suits because of their decent cuts.

 

Olive, I think most women would respond to that question with "Tough, that's their problem, not mine!" and yet Paul said if someone mentioned meat offered to idols was on your plate you were suppoed to not eat for their conscience. It did not matter if your consicence or convictions were OK with it.

 

BTW, Helen, working hard or strutting does not define modesty. I can be working hard digging a ditch on a hot Texas day in a thong (and they make them for men), but that would fer sure not make me modest.

 

Just out of curiosity...
How does one compare smoking pot and drinking to swimming?
Are you saying swimming or enjoying ourselves would be wrong to do? Is it the lust that you are saying is wrong or the swimming part?

Just curious
Naomi

 

I'm simply saying that nakedness is wrong. Swim if you like, but a beach with immodesty is out. Pools with half naked men is out. I'm saying that if it's wrong to go to a bar to witness, then being on a beach with nakedness is also wrong, especially if we do it and try to witness just to make it right or justify participation.

Too many times we wouldn't even consider something because we know it's wrong, yet if it's something we like to do, then we let down our guard and conform to the world.

We tend to become desensitized to the worlds ways and the standards that they place on nakedness, by being amongst them and doing the things they do. A shortened dress, with an ankle showing led to an even shorter dress. Nakedness in the 1940's was a man that didn't have a shirt on. Where have we come from and how much further will we go?

[ September 15, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: TheOliveBranch ]

 

Yes, I would preach against going to the beach. I would name it as sin. The Bible clearly teaches us to "make no provision for the flesh." Any transgression of God's law is sin. Public nakedness is a transgression of God's law. But, I would preach it in love with the admonition to live holy lives before the Lord. If you went to our church and you frequented the beach, I would still love you and pray for and do my best to pastor you. I would just question your commitment to God and your level of surrender to the Holy Spirit's control.

Olive Branch,

I agree with your comments regarding exposing ourselves to members of the same sex. Nakedness is nakedness. God says it is sin.

 

Be modest. Period. Enough said.

 

Maverick, what I was trying to say is that those women who buy the 'nothing' swim suits are really not interested in swimming in them! I was also trying to mention that a person's attitude comes through clearly even if they wear something extraordinarily modest! I was not trying to extend it any further than that, though!

Pastor Bob, I have taken so many biology classes to the beach in the past that I can only figure that what 'beach' means to some is not what it means to others.

Any sandy place where the ocean meets the shore is a beach. Playing in the waves and making sand castles and looking for shells -- these things are the natural part of growing up for any child living near one. Walking on the beach is extraordinarily calming for me -- it always has been. Exploring tidal pools is like opening a treasure chest -- I held a tiny baby squid in my hands once!

The ocean is magnificent, folks. I have seen otters playing and pods of whales swimming by. I have cooked live fresh lobsters my kids brought in. The best date of my entire life included in it dinner by the ocean and a long walk on the beach at midnight. The date was a gift from my oldest son when my husband had left.

And I remember walking on a Florida beach after dinner near Miami with a current boyfriend (1960 something I think...) in college and being totally fascinated by the luminescence of the seaweed as we kicked it.

I love the ocean. I love the beaches. I love the sound of it and the smell of it and the look of it. If that makes me suspect in someone's eyes, I guess that's the way it goes. I wear cutoffs when it's warm there and jeans when it's colder. It's not a place for a dress, which can blow up very immodestly with the ocean breezes.

And, as far as swim suits go, if you are wearing one and not interested in swimming, then I presume you are wearing it to 'strut your stuff' which I find disgusting no matter what a person is wearing...

 

It appears most people think all shorts are up to someones butt and everything they got is showing. Well a lot of people may wear them that way, but I do not, yet I still wear shorts. And nothing about me is exposed.

 

This is quite incredible, thanks to Helen for bringing a little reason into it and thanks ( I guess) to Maverick for putting a mental picture in our mind that we did not need. But most of all thanks to Christian Cynic for a very funny post.
I suppose common sense is required, this summer my family spent the week at Floridas St Joe beach, it was wonderful. The most amazing part was that it was so deserted that we timed it one day and nobody passed our area in 2 hours. Now I could have driven a little further up the coast and stayed at Panama city beach and I would have been exposed to something totally different. You all have the right to your commitment but I don't see any verses against beaches or swimming.
Murph

 

With all due respect Pastor, I disagree with you on this one.
I, personally do not "expose" myself at swimming areas. I am dressed modestly, and go in the water with my children. I am not struggling with looking at men in a lustful manner. Seriously, if I saw a man in a thong speedo swimsuit, I assure you, I still would not struggle with lust. Besides that, the places we attend do not even allow thong swim suits, or string bikinis.

Nevertheless, I have known some friends who chose not to attend these events, because they would struggle. These were male friends. I totally respected their decision.
I believe it is a choice everyone should make, based upon what would cause them to stumble.
I do not think we are called to question ones commitment to God, based upon if they go to the beach.
I do not see this as a sin issue.

God Bless,
Naomi

 

I think Bob maybe has a greater argument than you Naomi. You may not lust but there are plenty of men there to lust over you so you need not be there to be the object of that whether you feel you cause it or not.

 

Well, have you went grocery shopping lately? Have you went to a Department Store lately?
Notice how women are dressed? Have you noticed the "styles?" What I am trying to get across to everyone is that simply going to a beach or going swimming is not a sin.

Yes, we are in this world. There is half dressed people in the stores. There are posters in the stores that are inappropriate for our children to look upon. We cannot go out of the world, but we do not have to be of the world, and condone sin. We also do not have to be so fearful that we become agri-phobic (is this the correct term?)
Where we are so afraid to leave our own home, because we may get in the flesh....

We are to be a witness. A light in the darkness.
I point things that are offensive to me, as a christian all the time. I have shared on many occasions with Store Manager's, that a magazine in the check out line should not be in childrens view. Most of them tell me that I am the first person to ever say that. Alot of the stores have changed where they have placed them. I am certainly not quiet about it. This has opened up many opportunities to share the gospel with people. I use this to witness to people about Jesus. A gentle answer turns away wrath. People will listen to what you have to say, if they know you are sharing your faith, and not being Judgemental of them. I could give numerous testimonies of this.

I am not suggesting for us to wink at sin. I am suggesting that we not place unessesary burdens upon other's if The Holy Spirit isn't.

Naomi

 

This is the problem though...I can also be in church, dressed very modest, and because my legs are showing, or because I smiled at someone and was nice, I guess it caused a man to lust!
Should we take off all our make-up, wear ugly black long skirts, try to look as ugly as possible, or better yet cover our faces as the muslim women do, in order for men not to lust? I mean, I have heard so much about these rules and regulations, yet they always seem to be upon the women? Hmmmmm....

 

OK, let's see how far this idea of "not causing someone to stumble" is to go...

1) True or False-- We should never go out in public at all lest someone lust after us.

2) rue or False-- We should go out in public only if we're so ugly that lustful thoughts applied toward us are an unrealistic possibility.

3) True or False-- We should go out in public only if we are covered with loose-fitting material head to toe, including our faces.

4) True or False-- We should not go in public with our faces showing, even if they are cute.

5) True or False-- No skin between the neck and the feet should be showing when out in public.

6) True or False-- Short-sleeved shirts should not be worn in public.

7) True or False-- One's ankles should not be seen in public.

8) True or False-- One's shins should not be seen in public.

9) True or False-- One's knees should not be seen in public.

10) True or False-- The lower part of one's thighs should not be seen in public.

11) True or False-- One's midriff should not be seen in public.

12) True or False-- No one should "jiggle" in public (not matter what one is wearing).

13) True or False-- Men should not go shirtless in public.

14) True or False-- Women should not wear shorts and sports bras (no other chest covering) in public.

15) True or False-- No one should wear underwear only in public.

16) True or False-- Women should not go topless in public.

17) True or False-- No one should wear thong swimsuits (only) in public.

18) True or False-- No one should gocompletely naked in public.

My answers are False until #15, then they switch to True. So the idea of "causing someone to stumble" is in this issue, like others, entirely a question of extents. I don't think we are willing to become hermits to avoid it.

 

I am sorry Maverick I did not mean to come across like that. I do understand what you meant.
I really try hard to not cause anyone to stumble in any way. Be it by lust, or legalism, or bad doctrine, or anger, or anything!
Most people think I am too careful, but I care about people so much that I end up "swearing to my own hurt" sometimes.
Please forgive my previous tone.
Naomi

 

I have a sister-in-law who is autistic, but a very high functioning one. She is very intelligent but definitely damaged.

Here are some of her rules for righteous living:

Do not dress in black at any time. That is the devil's color. Preachers who wear black suits are of the devil.

Women should never wear pants (she seems to forget her own horseback riding years when she was younger...), as that is evil.

Short sleeved shirts on a man are exposing his nakedness.

Shirts worn outside the pants by a man are a poor witness to Christ.

One should not eat in restaurants as the chefs are probably not Christian and might do something to the food.

One should not accept phone calls from non-Christians.

Even if you are bleeding to death, you must pray for about at least 45 minutes before leaving the home on any given day.

If you don't do your Bible study in the morning before you do anything else, you are not a good Christian.

Legalism is her safety net in a world she does not understand and cannot cope with. We understand that and try to 'abide' by her rules as much as possible when we are with her. It is the only security she understands, really.

But when I see similar legalism in otherwise perfectly mentally healthy people, I wonder what on earth they are so afraid of.

I can understand women who simply feel immodest in certain kinds of clothing. I respect that entirely and have no wish to argue with anyone regarding their choices. But I also understand women who choose otherwise, and as long as it is modest and feminine (not slutty, folks, feminine!), why shouldn't we accept that? And, in agreement with someone else (I apologize for forgetting who...), shorts come in different lengths. An inch or two above the knee, which is where I like mine, is a world different from what my son refers to as a 'wide belt.'

Some men have exposed themselves so thoroughly to pornography and lustful thoughts that that is what is natural for them. I suppose they would even undress a mannequin in a department store with their eyes! I can't do anything about that. I can make sure that my dress and behavior do not invite that kind of thought in a more mentally healthy male, but that is the limit of my responsibility -- that, and teaching my daughters the same, and my sons to guard their hearts and minds.

--oh, and CC, you can't cause a man to stumble if he is already lying flat out in the gutter of his own thoughts, eh?

[ September 16, 2002, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Well stated Helen
Amen!!!!


Naomi

 

CC your killing me!
Well since Jesus wore a dress and sandals, I will vote OK on the whole shorts thing. This is too funny!

 

I agree completely with everything Helen has posted.

I love the beach. I love to swim. I too was on the swim team in High school and college. A bathing suit for swimming is indeed different than any other kind...It's made to stay on. Unless you've really swam, you'll miss what I mean by this.

I also agree that the beach is a wonderful place for more than swimming. I usually wear a sleeveless dress and sandals. Although cutoff jeans and a T-shirt sounds great too, for most of the things a person would do on the beach: have a picnic, hunt for shells, watch dolphins, walk, run, play volleyball, or frisbee, make sandcastles. Even just to sit and watch the waves.

My husband proposed to me at the beach. I love the beach, I love the water...don't ask me why I live in the desert...It's too heartbreaking to explain. The ocean is in my blood. Whenever my husband talks about moving inland... it makes me want to cry. I find great peace near the ocean...it's where I've often been found after life has thrown me a curve. Isn't God so good for making his beautiful and wonderous creation?

Modesty is from the heart. And I don't think that someone elses immodest behavior could be covered up by a mile of fabric either. We all know this is true. Some people need stricter rules to keep themselves in line...so they add a little more strictness to what the Bible says about the issue. Their life, their perogative.

You know the old saying "when in doubt, leave it out"? I say...this is what I do...when in doubt, pray about it, and if you don't get an answer, pray some more. All of the other opinions that other people have about what you should do in your life...won't mean a hill of beans in the long run will they?

When I said earlier that I miss shorts and two piece bathing suites...I meant it...before I was saved... there wasn't anything to think about. No far reaching ramifications. No one saying that I was causing others to "lust" or "sin" etc.. Shorts were just shorts...and a two piece bathing suit gave a better tan. Innocence.

[ September 17, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]