Originally posted by J. Jump:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />His kindom was already established. In fact, there were people in Mark 9:1 that would not die till they saw it come with power.
Well you're going to have a tough question to answer if Christ is already ruling and reigning over the earth, then why is the world is the shape that it is in? The Bible says that when Christ rules that all rule will eminate from the heavens (where Satan currently rules once again showing that Christ is not ruling) and from the earth via Jerusalem. So are you saying that Christ is on the earth ruling from Jerusalem?</font>[/QUOTE]That's not a tough question, in fact that is an easy question to answer. You are the one with the tough question to answer, and here it is.
When Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”, was he telling the truth, lying, deceived, or clueless?
As to your answer, the Lord’s kingdom is not a worldly, political economy, as was David’s, for Jesus plainly said: “My kingdom is not of this world” (Jn. 18:36), yet you contend it will be.
There is no scriptural basis for your absurd claims, yet many plain scriptures to the contrary.
“Marvel not at this: for
the hour cometh, in which
all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” (Jn. 5:28-29).
The resurrection of all will take place in "the hour".
More is revealed. When this takes place, the resurrection of all the dead,the following will also take place "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is no indication that the Lord will ever set foot on this earth again.
The prophet Zechariah prophesied about Christ:
“Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: and he shall grow up out of his place; and he shall build the temple of Jehovah; even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory,
and he shall sit and rule upon his throne; and be shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both” (Zech. 6:12-13).
This passage positively states that Christ would function as both priest and reign as king on his throne – simultaneously. If He is not reigning as king, then He is is not serving as a priest, and everyone is without attonement.
Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY, in HEAVEN AND ON EARTH (Matt 28:18). He is ruling over His Church (Col 1:18).
Neither of those things are happening. So Christ is not currently ruling. Another thing that shows that Christ is not currently ruling is that His bride is not complete and the wedding ceremony has not taken place. There will be no rule until that happens.
As to your question regarding some that shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His glory. Well that can easily be seen in the transfiguration where Peter, James and John saw Christ's kingdom and glory. So that was fulfilled just as it was written.
What in the world are you talking about? How did that fulfill one promise concerning the kingdom? I'm sorry, I'm not a mental gymnast.
Even by that twisted logic, how did that fulfill Mark 9:1?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Do you really believe they are still alive?
Nope they have died.</font>[/QUOTE]Therefore, by your own admission, the kingdom was established.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In the book of Colossians, Paul affirms that he and the brethren whom he addresses had been “translated” (note the past tense form of the verb) out of the power of darkness “into the kingdom of the Son of his love” (1:13), i.e., the kingdom of Christ. From the apostle’s vantage point, the kingdom was not a future (millennial) promise, but rather a present reality. The term “translated” (methistemi) means to “remove from one place to another”
Well another problem here is that they weren't "translated" anywhere. They were still on the earth. And we've already said that Christ is not on the earth ruling, just as He wasn't on the earth ruling then. He is seated at the right hand of the father acting as our High Priest and Mediator. While He is king, He is not currently ruling as king, but one day soon will take that position. Oh that that day would come quickly!!</font>[/QUOTE]They were translated into the kingdom. The text clearly states that. Christ's kindom, as we've already seen is not of this world. Therefore, it is a spiritual kingdom, where he is ruling with all authority.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Compare with this John’s declaration that he was a “partaker” in the kingdom with other Christians (Rev. 1:9).
The Revelation given to John was of things to come, not things that were currently taking place.</font>[/QUOTE]Let's just look and see.
"and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." Rev 1:5-6
If you really believe what wrote, then you believe that:
1) He does not love us now, but will love us
2) We are not free from our sins, but will be free
3) His blood currently has no power
4) The kingdom was not made
and from verse 9, " I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."
You must believe that:
1) John was not their brother, but would be
2) The tribulation, kingdom and patient endurance all found in Christ were future events
3) John's exile to Patmos was a future event.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John the Baptizer, Jesus himself, and the twelve disciples all preached that the kingdom was “at hand,” literally meaning “is come near” (Mt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7; Lk. 21:30 for the meaning of “at hand”). Thus, they preached the nearness of the kingdom of God, and such can scarcely be harmonized with the notion that it hasn’t come.
The kingdom was indeed at hand while the King was present on the earth and the offer was being made to the nation of Israel. And had the nation of Israel repented as a nation the kingdom would have been established right then and there. But the nation did not repent and in fact killed almost all of the messengers, including the King.</font>[/QUOTE]Please tell my you don't buy into that. Jesus knew all things that were going to happen to Him.
It was even prophisied that he would be rejected.
“But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they believed not on him: that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (Jn. 12:37,38).
Again, it was prophesied:
“The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner” (Psa. 118:22; cf. Mt. 21:33-46).
Having been foretold centuries before, the Jewish rejection of Christ was no surprise.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jesus taught that the “new birth,” consisting of being born of “water and the Spirit,” enables one to “enter the kingdom” (Jn. 3:5). This is simply receiving the Spirit’s message (the gospel), and being baptized in water – the very thing which puts one into the “one body” (1 Cor. 12:13), which is “the church” (Col. 1:18). Hence, to enter the church, is equal to becoming a citizen of the kingdom.
You are equating entering the kingdom with salvation by grace through faith, which is incorrect. You can see the kingdom through salvation by grace through faith, meaning you can be put in a position to understand what is being offered and then either reject the offer or accept the offer by obedience.
Once again that's where "baptism is a requirement for salvation" folks get off track. They start trying to force verses that aren't talking about savlation by grace through faith into that mold. It's like taking a square peg and forcing it to fit into the round hole.
There is nothing that one has to do in order to be saved by grace through faith. The free gift must be received. And it is received by believing and NOTHING else. If anything else comes into the equation it is no longer grace. It can't be any more simple than that.
Baptism and the rest of obedience comes in at entering the kingdom, which is soley based on works that come out of faithful living and obedience.</font>[/QUOTE]Here are some consequences of your statements:
1)The the Jews that believed Jesus (John 12:42) but refused to confess him were fine. They didn't follow after him, but who cares, they have belief only.
2)The demons that believe will be saved, because they have belief only.
3) Repentance is unnecessary because belief only saves (Luke 13:3, Acts 17:30). When God "commands all people everywhere to repent," he doesn't really mean it since belief only saves.
4) Confession is unnecessary and irrelevant, because belief only saves (Matt 10:32).
5) No obedience is requied (Heb 5:9) because belief only saves.
6) Jesus lied when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Mark 16:16
7) Peter, speaking by inspiration of the HS lied when he told them to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" - Acts 2:38. Why would they need remission since they obviously believed in Acts 2:37, else they would not have been cut to the heart.
Let me ask you a question. Do you really believe that repentance is unnecessary for salvation?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The premillennial concept is the result of literalizing a few symbolic verses in the book of Revelation, coupled with a considerable disregard for scores of very clear Bible passages.
This couldn't be further from the truth. The concept of the coming kingdom can be found in the opening chapters of Genesis and is the primary focus on God's revelation to mankind. But it is the one message that has received the most attack from the enemy and has been corrupted so much that it is rarely preached these days and if so is so misunderstood. The church thinks it is so rich, and nourished and in fact Christ said the church is miserable, naked and poor.
We've got to stop playing games and realize what the situation is. Christ is on the outside of the vast majority of our churches knocking to get in, but the vast majority of churches today are just comfortable with the way things are going, but the good news is that if individuals will open up Christ will come in and dine with them. Meaning that in these last days Christ is going to be dealing on an individual basis, because it is only individuals that are going to allow Him in.
Instead of making these wild claims, use some scripture to enforce your position.
