What all was Jesus wanting to accomplish while on earth?

[Skandelon]

I've heard some attempt to argue that we should evangelize more like Jesus, who was known for turning away people with his difficult messages (i.e. John 6).

But was that one of Christ's purposes while on earth? Couldn't Jesus have preached a message as powerfully appealing and effective as Peter did in Acts 2 when 2000+ were added to their numbers? Sure he COULD, but he didn't.

Instead, we see Jesus telling his followers to keep things quite for a while, speaking in parables so as to keep others from understanding and believing, and preaching very difficult sayings (like eat my flesh and drink my blood) without much of an explanation as to what he meant. Not to mention, he was calling his audience bad names like brood of vipers and white washed tombs...

Seems clear that Jesus wasn't trying to win over a lot of followers, in fact he seems content with the Remnant God had given to Him to train (a few Jews reserved to carry the message of redemption to the rest of the world). It seems Jesus is teaching his apostles and hardening the rest. He is intentionally not drawing all of Israel, but keeping them in the dark for the time being. It is only AFTER he is crucified and raised up that he sends the Gospel (God's enabling power unto Salvation) to be proclaimed to all the earth. That is when he draws all peoples to himself....first the Jew and then the Gentile.

WHY??? Who would crucify Him if over 2000 Jews came to believe in Him and follow him? Jesus had to blind and provoke the Jews to ensure his crucifixion. This is what Paul explained in Romans 11, where it speaks of Israel being 'cut off' (hardened), so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

This is the Historical Context of controversial passages such as John 6 and Romans 9, and not understanding that context leads to much misunderstanding about the authors obvious intent.

 

[convicted1]

What all was Jesus wanting to accomplish while on earth?

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance".

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

I've heard some attempt to argue that we should evangelize more like Jesus, who was known for turning away people with his difficult messages (i.e. John 6).

This statement is unsound all the way around. Jesus was God in the flesh.To say he was" known" for turning people away is to not understand at all what was taking place,because you fail once again to understand mans condition after the fall.
Jesus as sinless and perfect faithfully declared the truth of The Fathers covenant salvation to sinful men who did not like the truth...so they sinfully resisted it.
Jesus did not come to manipulate sinners to accept a proposition or mask the truth.

But was that one of Christ's purposes while on earth?

He came as Prophet ,Priest, and King, to accomplish redemption and bring about the Kingdom of God being manifested in it's final form ,the church.

Couldn't Jesus have preached a message as powerfully appealing and effective as Peter did in Acts 2 when 2000+ were added to their numbers? Sure he COULD, but he didn't.

This statement is misguided, based on your presupposition that man needs to be manipulated. The effectiveness of bible truth is because of the work of the Spirit.

Instead, we see Jesus telling his followers to keep things quite for a while, speaking in parables so as to keep others from understanding and believing, and preaching very difficult sayings (like eat my flesh and drink my blood) without much of an explanation as to what he meant.

Parables revealed truth to the sheep, concealed it from the goats.He did not have to "keep others" from understanding as the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God.

Not to mention, he was calling his audience bad names like brood of vipers and white washed tombs...

It was not His audience....it was hearers who were identified as religious hypocrites who kept people from seeking the truth of God who were correctly labeled as such.

Seems clear that Jesus wasn't trying to win over a lot of followers

,

Jesus just remained faithful to the truth the Father wanted Him to convey...they were not "up for grabs" and just needing a little more information.

in fact he seems content with the Remnant God had given to Him to train (a few Jews reserved to carry the message of redemption to the rest of the world).

The remnant was ...an elect remnant chosen to salvation....not just 'reserved as messengers. You are trying to put a spin on the whole passage putting it in a poor light, you will not come to truth this way.

It seems Jesus is teaching his apostles and hardening the rest. He is intentionally not drawing all of Israel, but keeping them in the dark for the time being

.

He preached openly to all Israel. Sin kept them from truth.Then God hardens them in the sin, by either not giving grace, or reprobating them on the spot.30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.

It is only AFTER he is crucified and raised up that he sends the Gospel (God's enabling power unto Salvation)

The Holy Spirit enables and empowers the gospel to be good news....it does not do it apart from the spirit...this also is error that you repeat often. It is bad news to sinners who do not repent and believe.

to be proclaimed to all the earth. That is when he draws all peoples to himself....first the Jew and then the Gentile.

WHY??? Who would crucify Him if over 2000 Jews came to believe in Him and follow him? Jesus had to blind and provoke the Jews to ensure his crucifixion.

This is completely wrong....why even write something like this???





This is what Paul explained in Romans 11, where it speaks of Israel being 'cut off' (hardened), so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

This is the Historical Context of controversial passages such as John 6 and Romans 9, and not understanding that context leads to much misunderstanding about the authors obvious intent.

this post obscures the truth...it does not really try and seek the truth.:thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

This statement is unsound all the way around. Jesus was God in the flesh.To say he was" known" for turning people away is to not understand at all what was taking place

What does the word say?

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

And

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

And

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.

And

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

​

What argument and passages support your perspective? Because thus far you've only submitted conjecture and opinion.

 

[OldRegular]

WHY??? Who would crucify Him if over 2000 Jews came to believe in Him and follow him? Jesus had to blind and provoke the Jews to ensure his crucifixion. This is what Paul explained in Romans 11, where it speaks of Israel being 'cut off' (hardened), so as to allow room for the Gentiles.

All Israel was not hardened! That has been shown previously. Furthermore, any hardening did not extend beyond the resurrection, otherwise Paul would not have always gone to the Jews first..

This is the Historical Context of controversial passages such as John 6 and Romans 9, and not understanding that context leads to much misunderstanding about the authors obvious intent.

The teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John 6 are for all who will hear. That includes you and me! They are not limited to the Jews of that time!

Jesus Christ accomplished that which He came to do. That is the truth, regardless of what anyone says. He said:

John 17:1-10
1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

I feel certain no one wants to question the words of Jesus Christ!

 

[Skandelon]

All Israel was not hardened!

I never said they all were. There was a remnant reserved from the hardening. I thought we went over this?

Furthermore, any hardening did not extend beyond the resurrection, otherwise Paul would not have always gone to the Jews first..

I actually agree with this point, so I'm not sure what you think you are accomplishing here.

 

[awaken]

What all was Jesus wanting to accomplish while on earth?

I believe that God's original plan was to extend His rulership, will and nature from heaven to earth. Man was created with this in mind, to execute God's will in the earth. His heavenly kingdom to come on earth just as it is in heaven.

We lost that dominion in the garden to satan! Jesus mission was to restore the Kingdom rulership of God on earth through mankind. Jesus himself was an example of how the kindom worked on earth. He demostrated the truth that God's Kingdom(spiritual) had come to earth.

Despite the fall in the Garden, God's desire never changed. He still wants to rule the earth by manifesting His Kingdom through the HOly Spirit in the lives of people who are commited to Him and sold out to His lordship.

If you read the Gospels Jesus taught about the Kingdom more than anything else! He came to restore righteousness and holiness to man.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John 6 are for all who will hear. That includes you and me! They are not limited to the Jews of that time!

Jesus Christ accomplished that which He came to do. That is the truth, regardless of what anyone says. He said:

John 17:1-10
1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

I feel certain no one wants to question the words of Jesus Christ!

I feel certain you are correct, sir... I also feel certain I have now seen how (many) Calvinists (at least on this board).... continue creating the illusion that they post SO MUCH Scripture in support of their views....whilst pretending their detractors do not.... This is the perfect example....Skan cites John chapter 6 and Romans chapter 9....No one actually engages the point of the thread based upon the Scriptures he used. Instead, they argue from randomly asserted passages such as Jeremiah 6: 39....and the same respondent then asserts an assumption from Romans 11.

You follow suit by patently ignoring the passages used in support of the OP by conveniently avoiding debating Skan's point (which he supported with John 6) by skipping immediately to a heretofore unmentioned passage in John chapter 17!!!.....Until the point of the OP is addressed....and while debating the supporting passages of the OP, his point remains, and no Cal has yet to therefore posit a Scriptural argument against it. He has not been rebutted....You guys rebutt him all you want, fine with me...

I am not sure I am quite as married to Skan's convictions about the "judicial hardenings" and the "corporate election" that he adheres to....(mainly out of my own present ignorance of that view) but I don't see anyone doing a particularly good job of refuting him....only using unrelated passages to side-step, and ignore him...That is NOT a debate. And until the passages Skan uses are exposed as NOT supporting the contentions he claims they do (and they often appear to IMO) then his point remains...that is how it works in the real world.

You can't defeat his exposition of a Scripture by posing what you think to be "opposition" Scripture...If you continue to work on these grounds...you are merely suggesting that the Bible contradicts itself, and that foments confusion......Carry on, and God bless us, everyone... {limps away with tiny crutch hoping for Christmas goose} :flower::saint:

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

What does the word say?

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

This supports what I had posted earlier.Jesus preached Covenant grace and mercy to Them.They had external religion/they rejected the truth of heavenly grace to sinners....they went away....they could not welcome it, because they loved sin more than God.

And

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

Mt.1311 And he answering said to them that -- `To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,


All men can physically hear and see the truth....only the elect are given to welcome it. All men reject it except to those made willing.

And

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.

And

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

[/INDENT]

What argument and passages support your perspective? Because thus far you've only submitted conjecture and opinion.

I use these same verses...just look at them as the glass half full, rather than your half empty view:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe that God's original plan was to extend His rulership, will and nature from heaven to earth. Man was created with this in mind, to execute God's will in the earth. His heavenly kingdom to come on earth just as it is in heaven.

We lost that dominion in the garden to satan! Jesus mission was to restore the Kingdom rulership of God on earth through mankind. Jesus himself was an example of how the kindom worked on earth. He demostrated the truth that God's Kingdom(spiritual) had come to earth.

Despite the fall in the Garden, God's desire never changed. He still wants to rule the earth by manifesting His Kingdom through the HOly Spirit in the lives of people who are commited to Him and sold out to His lordship.

If you read the Gospels Jesus taught about the Kingdom more than anything else! He came to restore righteousness and holiness to man.

I believe that God's original plan

Awaken,
this is God's original plan...being made known to the church;

9 and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,

10 that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,

11 according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,

:thumbsup: God is accomplishing exactly what he has eternally purposed.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

This supports what I had posted earlier.Jesus preached Covenant grace and mercy to Them.They had external religion/they rejected the truth of heavenly grace to sinners....they went away....they could not welcome it, because they loved sin more than God.

Whether God is preventing them through imputing a nature upon them from birth making them unable to believe truth, or he is preaching parables so they don't understand the truth, the result is the same: He is not attempting to win them over, like Peter did in Acts. He is actually hardening them, according to John 12:39. THAT is the reason they can't come to him, not because of some inborn condition.

It specifically says, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

Mt.1311 And he answering said to them that -- `To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,


All men can physically hear and see the truth....only the elect are given to welcome it. All men reject it except to those made willing.

Then why does is say, "lest they be converted?" How would that be possible if what you said is true?

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.

And

"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

[/INDENT]


I use these same verses...just look at them as the glass half full, rather than your half empty view:thumbsup:

What does that even mean? And how is YOUR view 'half full' when you are the view that believe those who are hardened represent those born destined to hell without hope of ever being saved, and my view is that God is hardening them for a time to accomplish a redemptive purpose and even those hardened might come to salvation (see Rom 11:14)

 

[OldRegular]

I never said they all were. There was a remnant reserved from the hardening. I thought we went over this?

I actually agree with this point, so I'm not sure what you think you are accomplishing here.

You drug John 6 into the conversation about which we had disagreement in the past. What is the relevance of John 6 to the OP title?

 

[Skandelon]

You may need to reread the OP.

 

[percho]

To confirm the promises unto the fathers.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

___________________________________________________________________

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

This written between 626 and 587 BC concerns two peoples though both guilty of the same sins were treated by God differently for the purpose of God.

Backsliding Israel had been given a bill of divorce by God and scattered by God among the nations, (the Gentiles, the heathen) back in 721 BC. Hosea wrote of them before this scattering what God told him, “for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.” God scattered them then and they have remained scattered since that time except for a few exceptions which I will attempt to cover.

God told Hosea this concerning her treacherous sister Judah, just as sinful as Israel, “ But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.” God did not give the house of Judah a bill of divorce, however he did send them into captivity for seventy years. After the seventy years many of them returned to Jerusalem and Judah and were in the land when Jesus of Nazareth was born. Jesus,
Heb. 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Why???
Who received him. John 15:16 You have not chosen me but I have chosen you, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
All were in unbelief unless they were chosen then they were in belief. All were just like Paul, 1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did ignorantly in unbelief. Verse 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Did Paul by his own free will become a believer or was he called by God through Jesus his Son and made a believer for the purpose of God?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: The fold of his own who did not receive him, Judah. They are of the children of Israel, however, Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Other sheep? Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, (The Gentiles) like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. The house of Israel given a bill of divorce. Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein no pleasure. John 7:34,35 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find: and where I am, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews (Judeans) among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, (Greeks) and teach the Gentiles? (Greeks) No he will go to the Father; V33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and [then] I go unto him that sent me. Jesus will send his apostles. Ones sent forth. Now the names of the twelve apostles are Verse 5,6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Acts 15:14,15 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name, and to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written. Period, the next verse concerns what is to take place after this taking out of the nations a people for his name. It had been written that God would take of those he had scattered among the nations (Gentiles) a people for his name sake. Of those he had scattered, not all of them at this time, however as Paul said: Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: But that follows: Acts 15:16,17 and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


Notice at that time they seek the Lord and those called for his name. Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

The heathen will also come to the Lord when they see what God has done with those they thought he had rejected.

 

[MB]

Skandelon;
I agree that Christ did as you have pointed out. The reason for it was because the time for Salvation had not arrived and could not until the debt had been paid.
Seems everything has a time and a place with Christ.
MB

 

[saturneptune]

What all was Jesus wanting to accomplish while on earth? Since the Father sent Him, He accomplished exactly what God the Father ordained in His will and plan of salvation. Christ accomplished exactly what the Father wanted, down to the greatest detail, no more or no less.

 

[Skandelon]

MB and Saturneptune,

I agree! :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

Whether God is preventing them

Sin is preventing them...not God. they get a sin nature from Adam.

through imputing a nature upon them from birth making them unable to believe truth

,

this is the result of Adams sin and rebellion....do not blame God for it.

or he is preaching parables so they don't understand the truth,

The parables reveal and conceal truth...they are designed to do both at the same time,

the result is the same: He is not attempting to win them over, like Peter did in Acts. He is actually hardening them, according to John 12:39. THAT is the reason they can't come to him, not because of some inborn condition.

like Pharoah....he hardened his own heart[the inborn sin nature]...and then God hardened His heart also...reprobating him.



It specifically says, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
They were reprobated at that time...turning away fromm Jesus.

Then why does is say, "lest they be converted?" How would that be possible if what you said is true?

Because they were responsible to believe the truth...if they repented and believed they would have been converted.....but they do not...if they did they would be converted...but they do not...he is explaining why the results were what they were.

What does that even mean? And how is YOUR view 'half full' when you are the view that believe those who are hardened represent those born destined to hell without hope of ever being saved, and my view is that God is hardening them for a time to accomplish a redemptive purpose and even those hardened might come to salvation (see Rom 11:14)

Half full because God saves a multitude that were born children of wrath,even as others...so any he saves are filling up the glass.

 

[Skandelon]

Sin is preventing them...not God. they get a sin nature from Adam.

Who decreed that man would receive a totally depraved nature as a result of the Fall, if not God?

 

[Iconoclast]

Who decreed that man would receive a totally depraved nature as a result of the Fall, if not God?

God told Adam....dying thou shalt surely die....He was not joking,it happened.