What are the Benefits to a DMin Program?

[TomVols]

1. Good point about this being a discussion/fellowship forum. This is something some people miss altogether. We aren't in a fracas yet. The moment we even smell like we're going there, I come in swinging.

2. Minor disagreement with Havensdad: To say that Master and Doctoral level courses in seminary are equal in rigor is not accurate. They are different in format, which may equal to more rigorous, but that's a by-product and not an intent. Some of the most rigorous classes I ever had were on the Bachelor's level. But that cannot be extrapolated to mean BA level courses are such over M.Div courses.

3. Minor disagreement with Stefan: All doctoral programs, be they professional or research, require research methodology courses. All D.Min programs I'm aware of do require this, because survey research is usually more of a necessity there than a research doctorate, for example.

4. Also, re: Stefan: Language study for D.Mins / PhDs is usually assumed. I haven't met a person yet who did not have to do leveling work for language deficiencies. I've seen people get into D.Min programs with 60 hour master's degrees and less than 3 years of ministry experience, but they had to go take at least 1 course each of Hebrew and Greek.

5. General: Only in the last 10-15 years or so has the number of classroom hours for the PhD at Southern exceeded the D.Min class hours. It's now roughly equal with a slight advantage to the PhD. A friend at SWBTS transferred from the PhD in OT to the D.Min and he was surprised that he had to spend more time in class in the D.Min than his PhD counterparts.

 

[StefanM]

3. Minor disagreement with Stefan: All doctoral programs, be they professional or research, require research methodology courses. All D.Min programs I'm aware of do require this, because survey research is usually more of a necessity there than a research doctorate, for example.

4. Also, re: Stefan: Language study for D.Mins / PhDs is usually assumed. I haven't met a person yet who did not have to do leveling work for language deficiencies. I've seen people get into D.Min programs with 60 hour master's degrees and less than 3 years of ministry experience, but they had to go take at least 1 course each of Hebrew and Greek.

My point regarding the research methods is in the depth of the study in research methods. D.Min. programs do not compare in depth to EdD programs in this area. For instance, Liberty's Doctor of Education program has 9 hours of courses in statistics/research methods, and a student would be required to take an additional three hours if the student lacked an educational statistics course in the master's degree. Another program I recently considered at the University of Memphis also requires 9 hours of statistics and research methods. Furthermore, even a cursory examination of DMin projects compared to Ed.D. dissertations indicates that the EdD is closer to a PhD than it is to an DMin.

This is why the EdD and the DBA are listed as research doctoral degrees. (http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-structure-us.html) It is also why the DMin is listed as an intermediate graduate qualification---not that it is "equal" to an EdS (It is a doctorate, after all)---but it is not a research doctorate. That doesn't mean that it is "inferior." It is just different.

As one in the field of education, I wish the Ed.D. were more like the DMin, to be honest. There is far too much overlap between the PhD and the EdD in the field and there is a bias against EdD holders, even when the research is comparable. I would propose something like "Doctor of Educational Administration" or "Doctor of Instruction." These degrees could be for those who want to sharpen their practical skills but have no desire for a research doctorate.

 

[TomVols]

I'm in education, too. I have friends who have done both the EdD and PhD, and the differences were identical to the D.Min/PhD. A quick scan of some D.Min programs I've seen require 8-9 hrs of research methodology. That's roughly the same as the EdD you mention.

Sorry so short...off to lecture to an evening class.

 

[TomVols]

It's interesting the degrees listed as research doctorates. Depends on what you mean by 'research.' A cousin just did the doctorate in Engineering. He did a project. Yet, that list says it's a research doctorated.

Quick google shows that at Univ of Deleware, PhD in education is research based while the EdD is practice-based.

I don't know how helpful these distinctions are prima facie. I think it depends on the program. That's my repeated refrain, that's all. That's my repeated refrain. :laugh:

 

[StefanM]

It's interesting the degrees listed as research doctorates. Depends on what you mean by 'research.' A cousin just did the doctorate in Engineering. He did a project. Yet, that list says it's a research doctorated.

Quick google shows that at Univ of Deleware, PhD in education is research based while the EdD is practice-based.

I don't know how helpful these distinctions are prima facie. I think it depends on the program. That's my repeated refrain, that's all. That's my repeated refrain. :laugh:

Such a distinction is common in schools of education. It's less clear when they offer only one degree. For instance, Harvard's school of education only offers the EdD (because only the graduate school of arts and sciences can offer the PhD).

There is a stream of thought that the PhD and EdD have moved closer to each other over time. Proponents of this view basically argue that the PhD standards have been relaxed as the EdD standards have increased, resulting in conflation of the degrees and their purposes. One reason for this, they postulate, is the perceived prestige of the PhD prompts practitioners to pursue a PhD instead of an EdD, even when they don't intend to pursue a research career. Colleges of education are often more than willing to accomodate, as full-time practitioners usually pay their own way through loans, reimbursement, or personal funds, and the programs end up being revenue-generating.

These are reasons why I think the EdD/PhD distinction needs to end. I think we would be better off with a terminal professional degree that doesn't try to be a PhD or PhD-lite.

 

[TomVols]

Such a distinction is common in schools of education. It's less clear when they offer only one degree. For instance, Harvard's school of education only offers the EdD (because only the graduate school of arts and sciences can offer the PhD).

In this way, Harvard is quite traditional. Duke is the same way. For instance, if you do a research doctorate through their seminary you get a ThD (Harvard, too). Do a research doctorate through the school of AS in "religion," you get a PhD.

There is a stream of thought that the PhD and EdD have moved closer to each other over time. Proponents of this view basically argue that the PhD standards have been relaxed as the EdD standards have increased, resulting in conflation of the degrees and their purposes. One reason for this, they postulate, is the perceived prestige of the PhD prompts practitioners to pursue a PhD instead of an EdD, even when they don't intend to pursue a research career. Colleges of education are often more than willing to accomodate, as full-time practitioners usually pay their own way through loans, reimbursement, or personal funds, and the programs end up being revenue-generating.

There is a lot of truth here. Same is true with DBA/PhD. I know at UT (The real one here in Knoxville:thumbsup there is still a distinction between the EdD and PhD, but at times not so much (in the dissertation/project). At times, on the seminary level I've seen PhD dissertations as nothing more than slightly longer D.Min projects. Some overlap is going to happen. Some of the conflation has had to do with budgetary restrictions. Colleges and universities can no longer afford to offer both a PhD and EdD courses/seminars in, say, higher education. A lot of programs are suffering financially, so the cuts have led to the phase-outs of programs altogether. A cousin's wife literally got to registration of a seminar in her PhD in Audiology only to find out that her school dropped the seminars and the whole major was on the chopping block. She ended up moving quite a distance to transfer to another program (try doing that in a PhD and see how easy it is. You'll hit the lottery whiile being struck by lightning easier than doing what she did). Some has had to do with simple supply and demand. DBA applicants have pretty well dried up save for the internet based programs in large part. Why? The secular world doesn't know what to do with you, and there are only so many teaching positions to be had. That's where we'd part company a bit.

There are lots of factors going into all this, to be sure.

I think we would be better off with a terminal professional degree that doesn't try to be a PhD or PhD-lite.

I'd like to hear you elaborate on this. I think I agree on the surface.

 

[StefanM]

There are lots of factors going into all this, to be sure. I'd like to hear you elaborate on this. I think I agree on the surface.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/04/10/education

I like the proposals in this article.

For example:

On the Ed.D. dissertation side, Imig describes the possibility of more collaborative work involving the analysis of data collected by others. Rather than generating their own data and hypothesis-testing, as Ph.D. students would, a group of Ed.D. students would analyze a specific pool of data from a number of different angles, each writing an individual dissertation on a specific aspect of the data which, when pooled together with the other dissertations, would combine to offer a comprehensive solution to a real-world problem. For example, in an analysis of achievement gaps in a particular county, one Ed.D. student could focus on race, another on math and science, another on parental engagement. “What they’re trying to do is provide original solutions, original answers that would provide direction for the school system, the superintendent, whatever," says Imig.

 

[TomVols]

Interesting proposal. Sounds a lot like what is done in MBA classes.

I believe schools of Ed will try to save EdD programs, whereas Biz schools gave up the ghost on the DBA programs to bolster MBA offerings and keep their PhD programs in tact.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Tbs

Again, I appreciate your perspective, and I have heard these criticisms before. I was actually hoping for the perspective of some who have recently completed D.Min.'s.

I am presently in the project phase of the D.Min. at Temple Baptist Seminary. I've found the program helpful in practical ways in the ministry directly. I did the degree almost directly after the M.Div. which may not be as common but having earned all my degrees while in ministry I think they took that into account.

If you want a cohort program Bethel Seminary in St.Paul has a great program. I needed fewer residency requirements as I have a special needs child and 3 other kids, a wife, a church, a rabbit, two cats, and a fish tank! The Ph.D. May require a lengthier and more theoretical dissertation, BUT doing a D.Min. With active church and family and community commitments is tough, but worth it.

I'm finding the same to be true. In my review of other projects I have seen some pretty lightweight stuff and also some great work. The project is what you make it ad I am diving into a deep subject in a serious way. You could "get by" easier but I want to grow in this and produce a valuable project, not just ave another oversized frame on my wall...

 

[Siberian]

I am presently in the project phase of the D.Min. at Temple Baptist Seminary. I've found the program helpful in practical ways in the ministry directly. I did the degree almost directly after the M.Div. which may not be as common but having earned all my degrees while in ministry I think they took that into account.

If you want a cohort program Bethel Seminary in St.Paul has a great program. I needed fewer residency requirements as I have a special needs child and 3 other kids, a wife, a church, a rabbit, two cats, and a fish tank! The Ph.D. May require a lengthier and more theoretical dissertation, BUT doing a D.Min. With active church and family and community commitments is tough, but worth it.

I'm finding the same to be true. In my review of other projects I have seen some pretty lightweight stuff and also some great work. The project is what you make it ad I am diving into a deep subject in a serious way. You could "get by" easier but I want to grow in this and produce a valuable project, not just ave another oversized frame on my wall...

Thanks for the feedback. I am looking for just this sort of challenge.