What are the issues with Penal Substitution Theory?

[JonC]

Or punch Himself....
There has to be someone fount accountable for the crime done, even God cannot just say I forgive you without some one paying the price of the crime committed!

Yes. That is a very good description of how Penal Substitution Theory works. The law is broken so before any reconciliation or forgiveness can take place the law must be satisfied. God had to punish someone for breaking the law...the actual lawbreaker or His Son (Himself). Once the crime is punished the actual criminal can be forgiven.

As you say - God could punch Himself.

OR, perhaps another model of divine justice is correct - maybe one that not only maintains God's justice but also His sovereignty in forgiveness. Perhaps one that magnifies God's righteousness apart from the law rather than through it.

I guess we carefully weigh the options with Scripture and take our stands.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. That is a very good description of how Penal Substitution Theory works. The law is broken so before any reconciliation or forgiveness can take place the law must be satisfied. God had to punish someone for breaking the law...the actual lawbreaker or His Son (Himself). Once the crime is punished the actual criminal can be forgiven.

As you say - God could punch Himself.

OR, perhaps another model of divine justice is correct - maybe one that not only maintains God's justice but also His sovereignty in forgiveness. Perhaps one that magnifies God's righteousness apart from the law rather than through it.

I guess we carefully weigh the options with Scripture and take our stands.

I think what those of us who hold to Pst would say is that there is really no other way that God can freely forgive our sins and yet remain true to his own Holiness!

 

[JonC]

I think what those of us who hold to Pst would say is that there is really no other way that God can freely forgive our sins and yet remain true to his own Holiness!

I agree.

Those who hold to the Theory of Penal Substitution deny that God can freely forgive. This would be simple forgiveness and it is not possible under the concept of retributive justice.

Have you ever considered that the Theory of Penal Substitution holds that the Father treated the Son as man treated God? God as faithful to man. Man treats God as unholy. The Son is faithful to the Father. The Father treats the Son as unholy.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree.

Those who hold to the Theory of Penal Substitution deny that God can freely forgive. This would be simple forgiveness and it is not possible under the concept of retributive justice.

Have you ever considered that the Theory of Penal Substitution holds that the Father treated the Son as man treated God? God as faithful to man. Man treats God as unholy. The Son is faithful to the Father. The Father treats the Son as unholy.

Because at that moment hanging upon the Cross, he who knew no sin became the sin offering/bearer for us to God, so was treated as being unholy, while yet never ceasing to be what he always was!

 

[JonC]

Because at that moment hanging upon the Cross, he who knew no sin became the sin offering/bearer for us to God, so was treated as being unholy, while yet never ceasing to be what he always was!

Did the Father condemn His Holy One (which would make God unfaithful to His own word)?

 

[utilyan]

Or punch Himself....
There has to be someone fount accountable for the crime done, even God cannot just say I forgive you without some one paying the price of the crime committed!

If someone has to PAY then its not forgiveness at all. Even worst if you got to torture someone I love, Including Jesus. I'm paying for it. Under Penal Substitution THEORY there is no forgiveness at all.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Why did the animal have to die in the garden to cover Adam and Eve? It was innocent. Why did God require the shedding of blood?

Christ became sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The wages is sin is death, Jesus paid the wage owed to us.

I don’t understand all the jargon in this debate, all I know is Jesus died for my
sins, and that I rightly deserve hell for my
sins.

God does in fact demand punishment for sin. If he didn’t then people wouldn’t be in hell. (See Luke 16)

 

[utilyan]

Why did the animal have to die in the garden to cover Adam and Eve? It was innocent. Why did God require the shedding of blood?

Christ became sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The wages is sin is death, Jesus paid the wage owed to us.

I don’t understand all the jargon in this debate, all I know is Jesus died for my
sins, and that I rightly deserve hell for my
sins.

God does in fact demand punishment for sin. If he didn’t then people wouldn’t be in hell. (See Luke 16)

Why did the animal have to die in the garden to cover Adam and Eve? It was innocent. Why did God require the shedding of blood?

Why did the animals not go to hell? Show me scripture where the animals sacrificed are damned. Even the famous SCAPEGOAT they let that guy go without killing it.

Its not the pagan volcano god system folks believe it to be.

"Christ became sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Sin offering. Figure of speech. He became the "miss the mark" that has never "missed the mark". So that we might be made the righteousness.

If he actually FAILED, than that would that help in righteousness at all?

There is a standard to mankind looked at universally as a whole, Some look at mankind, oh these guys are horrible monkeys, Oh look at how fearful, combative and greedy. But Jesus Christ ain't a substitute. He completely represents mankind at its top. When you need to look up what is a man standard built non defective model it is Jesus Christ. When the universe saw Jesus it was settled that all mankind was worth it. Jesus showed off the potential of all men.


"The wages is sin is death, Jesus paid the wage owed to us. "

Its not payed to you. In genesis. God said look "the day you eat of the tree is the day you die"

Does "the day you eat of the tree is the day you die" = "eat from the tree and I WILL KILL YOU"? NO.

The bad thing about sin is the SIN.

A selfish person doesn't comprehend the penalty of calling his wife stupid is he just called her stupid.

He only understand dog house, not eating, couch(maybe couch aint that bad).

The day you swallow poison is the day you die too, Just cause I let you know that doesn't mean I am a killer.


"I rightly deserve hell for my
sins."

Who made that judgement? Show us where God says "you deserve to go to hell".

Deserve is powerful word. Cause you can go to hell doesn't mean you deserve to. Deserve involves a judgement there is only one judge Jesus Christ.

Show us where in the bible God says ''All mankind deserve hell" If a rock bottom christian finally found Jesus in a pile of drugs that doesn't mean he 's earned it and the only way to be saved is to hit rock bottom yourself.

It makes for great humility until you let God do the judging then he lets you know its false humility.

''All mankind deserve hell" <-- Flat out lie. Satan's motto and plan from beginning.

"God does in fact demand punishment for sin. If he didn’t then people wouldn’t be in hell'

If you were damned and i shoved you in heaven, you would be horrified.

Everyone in hell is getting exactly what they want.

The gates of hell are locked from the inside. Those in there want NOTHING to do with God.

 

[JonC]

Why did the animal have to die in the garden to cover Adam and Eve? It was innocent. Why did God require the shedding of blood?

Christ became sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The wages is sin is death, Jesus paid the wage owed to us.

I don’t understand all the jargon in this debate, all I know is Jesus died for my
sins, and that I rightly deserve hell for my
sins.

God does in fact demand punishment for sin. If he didn’t then people wouldn’t be in hell. (See Luke 16)

We don't have to understand all the jargon of this debate. We don't even have to hold any of the theories that have been presented throughout history. The Theory of Penal Substitution is a minority view among believers, but there have been many views presented over the course of history. Thankfully all Christians affirm the truth you have identified here

Christ died for us. He became sin for us. He bore our sin and was pierced for our transgression. By His stripes we are healed.

The debate here, I hope, will always be among the faithful who affirm those truths. That said, the Theory we are dealing with is a product of Western thought and I am glad it is declining prior to becoming a majority position. I do believe it obstructs much of the truth of the gospel.

But I would much rather see someone come to Christ understanding the gospel through Penal Substitution Theory or Ransom Theory than not at all.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did the Father condemn His Holy One (which would make God unfaithful to His own word)?

He did not condemn Jesus to Hell, but he did treat Jesus while upon the Cross as if Jesus right then in Hell, suffering what we should have to endure once judged and condemned for our sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

We don't have to understand all the jargon of this debate. We don't even have to hold any of the theories that have been presented throughout history. The Theory of Penal Substitution is a minority view among believers, but there have been many views presented over the course of history. Thankfully all Christians affirm the truth you have identified here

Christ died for us. He became sin for us. He bore our sin and was pierced for our transgression. By His stripes we are healed.

The debate here, I hope, will always be among the faithful who affirm those truths. That said, the Theory we are dealing with is a product of Western thought and I am glad it is declining prior to becoming a majority position. I do believe it obstructs much of the truth of the gospel.

But I would much rather see someone come to Christ understanding the gospel through Penal Substitution Theory or Ransom Theory than not at all.

It is the primary viewpoint of reformed and Calvinists...

 

[JonC]

He did not condemn Jesus to Hell, but he did treat Jesus while upon the Cross as if Jesus right then in Hell, suffering what we should have to endure once judged and condemned for our sins!

So you do believe that God condemned Jesus, in our place. Correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why did the animal have to die in the garden to cover Adam and Eve? It was innocent. Why did God require the shedding of blood?

Why did the animals not go to hell? Show me scripture where the animals sacrificed are damned. Even the famous SCAPEGOAT they let that guy go without killing it.

Its not the pagan volcano god system folks believe it to be.

"Christ became sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Sin offering. Figure of speech. He became the "miss the mark" that has never "missed the mark". So that we might be made the righteousness.

If he actually FAILED, than that would that help in righteousness at all?

There is a standard to mankind looked at universally as a whole, Some look at mankind, oh these guys are horrible monkeys, Oh look at how fearful, combative and greedy. But Jesus Christ ain't a substitute. He completely represents mankind at its top. When you need to look up what is a man standard built non defective model it is Jesus Christ. When the universe saw Jesus it was settled that all mankind was worth it. Jesus showed off the potential of all men.


"The wages is sin is death, Jesus paid the wage owed to us. "

Its not payed to you. In genesis. God said look "the day you eat of the tree is the day you die"

Does "the day you eat of the tree is the day you die" = "eat from the tree and I WILL KILL YOU"? NO.

The bad thing about sin is the SIN.

A selfish person doesn't comprehend the penalty of calling his wife stupid is he just called her stupid.

He only understand dog house, not eating, couch(maybe couch aint that bad).

The day you swallow poison is the day you die too, Just cause I let you know that doesn't mean I am a killer.


"I rightly deserve hell for my
sins."

Who made that judgement? Show us where God says "you deserve to go to hell".

Deserve is powerful word. Cause you can go to hell doesn't mean you deserve to. Deserve involves a judgement there is only one judge Jesus Christ.

Show us where in the bible God says ''All mankind deserve hell" If a rock bottom christian finally found Jesus in a pile of drugs that doesn't mean he 's earned it and the only way to be saved is to hit rock bottom yourself.

It makes for great humility until you let God do the judging then he lets you know its false humility.

''All mankind deserve hell" <-- Flat out lie. Satan's motto and plan from beginning.

"God does in fact demand punishment for sin. If he didn’t then people wouldn’t be in hell'

If you were damned and i shoved you in heaven, you would be horrified.

Everyone in hell is getting exactly what they want.

The gates of hell are locked from the inside. Those in there want NOTHING to do with God.

God had already condemned and judged guilty all who have broken His own law, and that means per God all deserve hell!

 

[Yeshua1]

So you do believe that God condemned Jesus, in our place. Correct?

God judged Jesus as being like a sinner who will be condemned to hell for their sins, even though Jesus was still sinless, as at that moment was the sin bearer in our stead! NOTHING to do with Jesus himself, but ALL to do with him bearing the sins of His own then!

 

[JonC]

God judged Jesus as being like a sinner who will be condemned to hell for their sins, even though Jesus was still sinless, as at that moment was the sin bearer in our stead! NOTHING to do with Jesus himself, but ALL to do with him bearing the sins of His own then!

Please correct me if I misrepresent your belief. You believe:

1. Jesus is God, He is righteous.

2. Jesus never sinned.

3. On the cross God condemned Jesus as a sinner.

4. Condemning the righteous is an abomination to God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please correct me if I misrepresent your belief. You believe:

1. Jesus is God, He is righteous.

2. Jesus never sinned.

3. On the cross God condemned Jesus as a sinner.

4. Condemning the righteous is an abomination to God.

Point 3/4 God did not condemn Jesus Himself based upon his personal status, but die to Him being the sin bearer, and Him becoming sin for us while on the Cross, so God was perfect just on pouring out His divine wrath upon Jesus then!

 

[JonC]

Point 3/4 God did not condemn Jesus Himself based upon his personal status, but die to Him being the sin bearer, and Him becoming sin for us while on the Cross, so God was perfect just on pouring out His divine wrath upon Jesus then!

Hey brother. Bear with me a minute -

Did God consider or treat Jesus as if He were a sinner (disobedient) when in fact Jesus was righteous and obedient even to the cross?

If so, how would you reconcile this with passages that state God will not fail the righteous, that condemning the righteous is an abomination to God, and that God is faithful to His Holy One?

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey brother. Bear with me a minute -

Did God consider or treat Jesus as if He were a sinner (disobedient) when in fact Jesus was righteous and obedient even to the cross?

If so, how would you reconcile this with passages that state God will not fail the righteous, that condemning the righteous is an abomination to God, and that God is faithful to His Holy One?

In the sight of the Father, Jesus, though still God and fully sinless, was seen by God. and had to be treated as the sin bearer!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey brother. Bear with me a minute -

Did God consider or treat Jesus as if He were a sinner (disobedient) when in fact Jesus was righteous and obedient even to the cross?

If so, how would you reconcile this with passages that state God will not fail the righteous, that condemning the righteous is an abomination to God, and that God is faithful to His Holy One?

Did God condemn Jesus after the Cross, or just while He was on it?

 

[JonC]

Did God condemn Jesus after the Cross, or just while He was on it?

Neither.