What are you Soteriologically?

[Greektim]

Your insults and arrogance are unbecoming. But bray on.

I'm just surprised I'm the only supra who has voted so far. Where are you guys???

 

[InTheLight]

Although there is no free will....but free moral agency...this statement is basically the biblical doctrine of unconditioanal election and irresistable grace,ITL!!!:applause::applause:

1]you are predestinated

2]because God

3]in such a way to cause His grace to be effectively applied to you, resulting in your salvation

:thumbsup::thumbs:

M'Kay...So we're not that far apart after all. From our point of view we think we made a choice; from God's point of view He made it happen. So when someone asks, "Did you choose to believe or did God elect you?" I typically answer: YES.

I'm still working out all this stuff.

 

[TCassidy]

M'Kay...So we're not that far apart after all. From our point of view we think we made a choice; from God's point of view He made it happen. So when someone asks, "Did you choose to believe or did God elect you?" I typically answer: YES.

I'm still working out all this stuff.

Excellent point! When all of our preconceptions are set aside and we really examine the issue we find that we are much closer than we originally assumed.

As to the above the only thing we might disagree on is the sequence. I believe God's election precedes my choice. In other words, God's grace regenerated my sin-sick soul so that I recognized my need and acknowledged Him as Lord and Savior.

You might see that as being the other way around. You first recognized your need and that resulted in your regeneration.

 

[TCassidy]

It all depends. Is "order" important. If order matters, then permutations, if not, then combinations.
Kudos Padredurand

Order is important to us as we are limited by time, sequence, and duration. However, when we (attempt) to put time, sequence, and duration aside and try to view the issue from God's perspective (admittedly a very difficult thing to do) we see that there need be no logical sequence for sequence is a function of time and God exists outside of time and is not limited by time, sequence, or duration.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I see this response quite often. However, with a little thought it can be proven wrong. I don't use the term "Calvinist" because my faith has nothing to do with Jean Cauvin (John Calvin). So, minstead, I use the more correct theological term "monergism." The other position is "synergism."

Monergism can be broken down into 5 heads of doctrine, or points.

1. Total depravity. If you accept it you are a monergist. If you reject it you are a synergist.

2. Unconditional election. If you accept it you are a monergist. If you reject it you are a synergist.

3. Limited atonement. If you accept it you are a monergist. If you reject it you are a synergist.

4. Irresistible grace. If you accept it you are a monergist. If you reject it you are a synergist.

5. Perseverance of the saints. If you accept it you are a monergist. If you reject it you are a synergist.

One is either one or the other. There is no middle ground. Its like being pregnant. You either are or you aren't.

#1 depraved by nature? yes, unable to repent? no

#2 absolutely not. God did not create anyone for the purpose of sending them to Hell. yes, God has foreknowledge and knows who will repent, but just because He knows our destiny doesnt mean He decreed it.

#3 "whosoever" means everyone. just because a person rejects Grace doesnt mean that Jesus didnt atone for them

#4 this is just crazy. if a person cannot resist, then why do we evangelise? if God forces salvation on some and denies it to others, then what is the purpose of the great commision? Can man do more than God? If God has already predestined your eternity, then what can man do to change that?

#5 this i accept. Our salvation is sealed to the day of redemption.

Ok, so I am not a Cal. but by my responses here I am not an Arm either

Where do you get the idea that there are only two theologies?

John

 

[TCassidy]

#1 depraved by nature? yes, unable to repent? no

How can a person who is the enemy of God change his mind about God if he is totally depraved? He hates God. He rejects God and has no desire to repent or believe. Without the intervention of God that person would keep going in his depravity and end up in hell.

#2 absolutely not. God did not create anyone for the purpose of sending them to Hell. yes, God has foreknowledge and knows who will repent, but just because He knows our destiny doesnt mean He decreed it.

What condition of perfection did you meet that caused God to have to save you? (By the way, I never said anything about God creating anyone for the purpose of sending them to hell. I don't believe in double predestination. ALL people are destined for hell unless God intervenes with His grace.)

#3 "whosoever" means everyone. just because a person rejects Grace doesnt mean that Jesus didnt atone for them

How can a person who has had his sins atoned for and is therefore sinless go to hell? If everybody, without exception, has had their sins paid for then doesn't that mean that everybody is going to heaven?

#4 this is just crazy. if a person cannot resist, then why do we evangelise? if God forces salvation on some and denies it to others, then what is the purpose of the great commision? Can man do more than God? If God has already predestined your eternity, then what can man do to change that?

We evangelize because God commanded us to do so. God does not force salvation on anybody. He makes us willing to come. The purpose of the great commission is to preach the gospel which is the means by which God has determined to accomplish His will. No, man cannot do more than God. We can only obey. Man cannot change his ultimate destiny unless God intervenes. Jesus said that by taking care a man can't add to his height so how in the world could he attain unto heaven itself?

#5 this i accept. Our salvation is sealed to the day of redemption.

Amen. We find at least some small area of agreement.

Ok, so I am not a Cal. but by my responses here I am not an Arm either

I disagree. You are a 1 point Calvinist and a 4 point Arminian.

Where do you get the idea that there are only two theologies?

Uh, because there are only two. Each of the 5 points is either accept or reject. Yes or no. Yea or nay. Monergist or Synergist. Calvinist or Arminian.

 

[seekingthetruth]

How can a person who is the enemy of God change his mind about God if he is totally depraved? He hates God. He rejects God and has no desire to repent or believe. Without the intervention of God that person would keep going in his depravity and end up in hell.What condition of perfection did you meet that caused God to have to save you? (By the way, I never said anything about God creating anyone for the purpose of sending them to hell. I don't believe in double predestination. ALL people are destined for hell unless God intervenes with His grace.)How can a person who has had his sins atoned for and is therefore sinless go to hell? If everybody, without exception, has had their sins paid for then doesn't that mean that everybody is going to heaven?We evangelize because God commanded us to do so. God does not force salvation on anybody. He makes us willing to come. The purpose of the great commission is to preach the gospel which is the means by which God has determined to accomplish His will. No, man cannot do more than God. We can only obey. Man cannot change his ultimate destiny unless God intervenes. Jesus said that by taking care a man can't add to his height so how in the world could he attain unto heaven itself?
Amen. We find at least some small area of agreement. I disagree. You are a 1 point Calvinist and a 4 point Arminian.Uh, because there are only two. Each of the 5 points is either accept or reject. Yes or no. Yea or nay. Monergist or Synergist. Calvinist or Arminian.

Actually, I would come closer to being a Cal than an Arm. As much as i dislike Calvinism, I believe the Arminians to be even more wrong.

John

 

[quantumfaith]

Order is important to us as we are limited by time, sequence, and duration. However, when we (attempt) to put time, sequence, and duration aside and try to view the issue from God's perspective (admittedly a very difficult thing to do) we see that there need be no logical sequence for sequence is a function of time and God exists outside of time and is not limited by time, sequence, or duration.

Thanks TCassidy, but my only intent was to distinguish between the mathematical concepts of permutations and combinations. I had not other agenda.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I voted Classical Arminian for several reasons:

• It looked so lonely with zero votes.
• I wanted to get something out of that $30,000 I spent on my Classical Arminian education.
• I was going to vote Genius but my overwhelming humility kept from voting as such.
• I like to annoy people from New Jersey.

Nuance: A subtle or slight degree of difference, as in meaning, feeling, or tone; a gradation. source

Am I the only one troubled by this word? How many permutation of truth are there?

D, You failed in your last mission :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It all depends. Is "order" important. If order matters, then permutations, if not, then combinations.
Kudos Padredurand

L di dt! :tongue3:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

His response, and your approval of it, proves that he, and you, are grossly ignorant of what free will is, and what predestination is. There was nothing reasonable in his foolish, sarcastic questions so I felt no need to be reasonable in my response. If neither of you understands the difference between free will and free moral agency why should I waste my time trying to educate the uneducable?

Snot arsed remark! your supposed to be both a teacher & a pastor or have you rescinded both positions to concentrate on quick & cheap answers! Please Tom, you are better than that!

 

[TCassidy]

Snot arsed remark! your supposed to be both a teacher & a pastor or have you rescinded both positions to concentrate on quick & cheap answers! Please Tom, you are better than that!

If you don't like what I write, don't read it! His "questions" were neither pertinent nor sincere. They were the typical mindless response of an Arminian who is incapable of understanding and discussing the issue so they engage in foolish hyperbole.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you don't like what I write, don't read it! His "questions" were neither pertinent nor sincere. They were the typical mindless response of an Arminian who is incapable of understanding and discussing the issue so they engage in foolish hyperbole.

OK so when you engage in dialog with Arminians or anyone who you perceive as (sarcastic or arrogant) do you immediately jump to a defensive posture & just dismiss them as .... well whatever....the point is you dismiss them as invalid. I think you are missing a teachable moment & I know you to be a better person than that. I know that you specifically can take the high road, make your dialog a scholarly teaching experience.....and then move on if you wish. Ive seen you do that in the past & I was personally impressed. Of course, this is your choice Tom, but I ask that you not disappoint the folks who lurk & then formulate opinions on this forum....& you know where I am coming from.

I would have preferred you use your mind & teaching abilities to provide a dissertation on what specifically Predestination truly is.... that would be a worthy achievement.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If you don't like what I write, don't read it! His "questions" were neither pertinent nor sincere. They were the typical mindless response of an Arminian who is incapable of understanding and discussing the issue so they engage in foolish hyperbole.

I'm not an Arminian.

My questions were sincere.

If you think I am incapable of understanding and discussing anything, then you haven't read enough of my posts. I can more than hold my own against anyone -- and I believe "anyone" would include you.

Regardless, though, of what you think of me, I will still pray for you, as I do all members of this forum, whatever our relationship might be.

 

[Iconoclast]

M'Kay...So we're not that far apart after all. From our point of view we think we made a choice; from God's point of view He made it happen. So when someone asks, "Did you choose to believe or did God elect you?" I typically answer: YES.

I'm still working out all this stuff.

Exactly.....we do make a choice to believe in Jesus...we believe,and continue to believe...everyday...we choose Jesus...because He first loved and choose us!!! That is why we praise and worship Him:thumbs:We believe outwardly at a point in time...because before time God elected everyone who He planned to save...then he enables us to repent and believe:wavey:

 

[HankD]

1.) I am a hyper/ Supra-lapsarian Calvinist
2.) I am an Infralapsarian Calvinist
3.) I am a Classsical Arminian
4.) I am a Molinist
5.) I take an Amyraldian view of Soteriology
6.) I am an Open Theist
7.) I am such a genius that no one has worked out this topic to satisfy my brilliance

I voted #7.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I voted #7.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

HankD

Guess the Apostle John actually DID live on until second coming, and now goes by name of Hank!

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Thank you all who have voted so far.....And yes, I forget who corrected me on this, but you are right....I should not have lumped Supra-Lapsarians and Hyper-Cals in the same group.....They are often one and the same....but not necessarily...So thank you for that correction....

 

[Greektim]

Thank you all who have voted so far.....And yes, I forget who corrected me on this, but you are right....I should not have lumped Supra-Lapsarians and Hyper-Cals in the same group.....They are often one and the same....but not necessarily...So thank you for that correction....

por ejemplo,

I evangelize and I'm a supra-lap. But I preach an unattractive gospel. I think it mirrors Jesus' presentation very much.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

por ejemplo,

I evangelize and I'm a supra-lap. But I preach an unattractive gospel. I think it mirrors Jesus' presentation very much.

Aha...I was too lazy to look up who called me out for that mistake...my apologies for having equivocated....You are absolutely right....Hypers and Supras are not necessarily the same.