What Are Your Thoughts About The Thief On The Cross?

[George Antonios]

If this illustration doesn't scream election, what does it say?

Apparently, you can hear a sound crying "ELECTION!" out of utter silence.
Now I understand how you hear it in other verses as well, for you hear much out of silence, as per your own testimony.

Why didn't he say anything to the other?

I know this is controversial theology here, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say: "because the other guy didn't call on the Lord like this man did".
I know, I know, I'm crazy for actually hearing words, not silence, but I can't shake this feeling of COMMON SENSE!

 

[George Antonios]

So you're a cut above the rest?

No, that's you, the eternally elect/special people.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

No, that's you, the eternally elect/special people.

That's the point really. The elitist premise (accusation) can be turned (pointed) either way. It is in essence an ad hominem fallacy rather than a bona fide argument.

 

[tyndale1946]

Apparently, you can hear a sound crying "ELECTION!" out of utter silence.
Now I understand how you hear it in other verses as well, for you hear much out of silence, as per your own testimony.

I know this is controversial theology here, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say: "because the other guy didn't call on the Lord like this man did".
I know, I know, I'm crazy for actually hearing words, not silence, but I can't shake this feeling of COMMON SENSE!

George I understand Election fully but its not like others say it is... It is not a handful and it is not remnant, those are just parts of the whole, but to see the full content of Election all you have to do is go to the book of Revelation and you can see the full content of Election... Now do you agree with this view?... Brother Glen

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Oh and btw Iconoclast wanted to know my view of Election and I am sure that my fellow kyredneck and I share the same view, and as far as I know us Old Line/Old School Primitive Baptist believe that ALL that Jesus' Father gave him WILL be saved... Unless scripture says so!

 

[Chili1955]

JC Ryrie said One thief was saved so that no one should despair, one was lost so that no one should presume.

Martin Luther talked about 2 great sins: Despairing of God's forgiveness and presuming God's Forgiveness'

 

[tyndale1946]

JC Ryrie said One thief was saved so that no one should despair, one was lost so that no one should presume.

Martin Luther talked about 2 great sins: Despairing of God's forgiveness and presuming God's Forgiveness'

Good thought... We know one went to Heaven, because the LORD told him so!... The other one?... Is in Gods hands!... Brother Glen

 

[robycop3]

The lessons Jesus teaches in causing the story of the repentant thief to be included in Scripture is that He will save anyone who belives in Him as Lord & Savior, and that, while baptism is His command, it is for the SAVED, & that He saves BEFORE baptism. The thief couldn't possible be baptized, but Jesus saved him because of his BELIEF, & CALLING ON HIM FOR SALVATION.

Remember, I am a Baptist, & I believe anyone who becomes saved should be baptized ASAP. But I fully believe SALVATION COMES FIRST, & if a saved person dies before being baptized, he/she is still just-as-saved as one who is baptized.

 

[Van]

I have no problem accepting that the thief on the cross provides evidence of divine election. The issue of course is whether his election was conditioned upon his faith or whether it was instilled by "Irresistible Grace." Since 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through or by way of faith in the truth, the answer of course is "conditioned upon his faith."

Luke 23:40-42
But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

Sound like this fellow believed in Jesus, as the Messiah, sinless, and going to come into His kingdom. Sounds like faith based on what he had heard about Jesus, and therefore provides no support to speculation about "instilled faith." And this faith, as flawed as it certainly was, was accepted by God, because Jesus said "today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[percho]

The lessons Jesus teaches in causing the story of the repentant thief to be included in Scripture is that He will save anyone who belives in Him as Lord & Savior, and that, while baptism is His command, it is for the SAVED, & that He saves BEFORE baptism. The thief couldn't possible be baptized, but Jesus saved him because of his BELIEF, & CALLING ON HIM FOR SALVATION.

Remember, I am a Baptist, & I believe anyone who becomes saved should be baptized ASAP. But I fully believe SALVATION COMES FIRST, & if a saved person dies before being baptized, he/she is still just-as-saved as one who is baptized.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:50
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: Matt 20:22.23

Maybe he could be baptized?

Something else interesting. That passage from Matthew was in response to the mother of James and John requesting for them to sit, one on each side of Jesus, in his kingdom.

 

[Brightfame52]

The thief on the cross was converted to Christ in his last hour of life, Christ was his Saviour, he was chosen in Christ before the foundation. Christ was bearing his sins and procured his forgiveness. Christ gave him Faith to believe in Him.

 

[robycop3]

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:50
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: Matt 20:22.23

Maybe he could be baptized?

Something else interesting. That passage from Matthew was in response to the mother of James and John requesting for them to sit, one on each side of Jesus, in his kingdom.

No, he couldn't be baptized while being executed upon a cross. Jesus, who knows all hearts, saved him because He knew the man really believed in Him, and had asked Him for salvation.

 

[percho]

No, he couldn't be baptized while being executed upon a cross. Jesus, who knows all hearts, saved him because He knew the man really believed in Him, and had asked Him for salvation.

My point:

The baptism Jesus was speaking of in Luke 12:50 and Matt 20:22,23; Was that water baptism?

What baptism?

In Matt 20:23 He tells them they, "shall indeed," drink of the cup and be baptized with.

What baptism?

Then followed with a question and statement.

 

[37818]

My point:

The baptism Jesus was speaking of in Luke 12:50 and Matt 20:22,23; Was that water baptism?

What baptism?

In Matt 20:23 He tells them they, "shall indeed," drink of the cup and be baptized with.

What baptism?

Then followed with a question and statement.

I am of the opinion it was Jesus death on the cross and those disciples martyrdom.

 

[robycop3]

My point:

The baptism Jesus was speaking of in Luke 12:50 and Matt 20:22,23; Was that water baptism?

What baptism?

In Matt 20:23 He tells them they, "shall indeed," drink of the cup and be baptized with.

What baptism?

Then followed with a question and statement.

Jesus was "baptized" with His "passion". He took enough physical abuse to have killed an ordinary man 3 times. He was in great pain upon the cross, having been scourged, pummeled with fists & blows from staffs & spear shafts, & having his beard yanked out. The Roman whip, a cat o' nine tails, was embedded with shards of metal & glass. Soldiers competed to see which one could land the hardest blows. Jesus' back, beaten raw, rubbed against the rough pole of His cross while He hung on it.

Jesus was distressed because He knew all that was coming on Him. THAT was His coming "baptism".

 

[AustinC]

No, that's you, the eternally elect/special people.

I believe the Bible says "Chosen."

Do you despise the King for choosing to Redeem wretched people, George?

 

[percho]

Jesus was "baptized" with His "passion". He took enough physical abuse to have killed an ordinary man 3 times. He was in great pain upon the cross, having been scourged, pummeled with fists & blows from staffs & spear shafts, & having his beard yanked out. The Roman whip, a cat o' nine tails, was embedded with shards of metal & glass. Soldiers competed to see which one could land the hardest blows. Jesus' back, beaten raw, rubbed against the rough pole of His cross while He hung on it.

Jesus was distressed because He knew all that was coming on Him. THAT was His coming "baptism".

.

Now John the Baptist said the following.
'I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.' Matt 3:11,12 YLT

Yet we also have the following statements:
and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39 YLT
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [Holy Spirit] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 KJV

Did the baptism of Jesus you are speaking of last for three days and or three days and three nights? When was the earliest the quickening of the mortal body to be available? To be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Will the dead (mortal) body of Abraham be quickened by the Spirit available after the glorification of Jesus.

1 Cor 15:51-53 YLT lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
Rom 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also A. the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- B. he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:33 YLT

Did A must happen before B. could happen?

 

[robycop3]

.

Now John the Baptist said the following.
'I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.' Matt 3:11,12 YLT

Yet we also have the following statements:
and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39 YLT
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [Holy Spirit] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 KJV

Did the baptism of Jesus you are speaking of last for three days and or three days and three nights? When was the earliest the quickening of the mortal body to be available? To be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Will the dead (mortal) body of Abraham be quickened by the Spirit available after the glorification of Jesus.

1 Cor 15:51-53 YLT lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality;
Rom 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also A. the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- B. he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:33 YLT

Did A must happen before B. could happen?

That "baptism" lasted from Jesus' arrest til He died. He sent the Holy Spirit in His place as Teacher. (but not Savior)

 

[George Antonios]

I believe the Bible says "Chosen."

Do you despise the King for choosing to redeem wretched people, Austin?

 

[Campion]

"This is the simplest way to put it: the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of baptism is that it saves. For no one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, ‘to be saved.’ To be saved, as everyone knows, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, to enter into Christ’s kingdom, and to live with him forever." - Martin Luther, Large Catechism

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

If you don't even believe baptism actually does that which Scripture says it does (above), then arguing about the volume of water used like whether to immerse or sprinkle someone is entirely moot.

 

[percho]

There is also an antitype which now saves [which now is saving] us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

What baptism is that speaking of?
Is the same, "baptism," seen here?

for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God [<a good conscience toward God] through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life. Rom 5:10

What/Whose baptism saves? Your water baptism? Again -

are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized [in] to Christ Jesus, [in] to his death were baptized?
For, if we have become planted together [in] to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again; Rom 6:3,5

But Jesus answering said to him, 'Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfill all righteousness,

Does it take, "all," of the following to fulfill righteousness? A and B?

[A] ' then he doth suffer him. And having been baptized, - dead three days and three nights
Jesus went up immediately from the water (< raised out of the dead, quickened by the Spirit 1 Peter 3:18) and lo, opened to him were the heavens, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him, and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, 'This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight.' Matt 3:15-17

marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, [out of resurrection of dead ones] by resurrection of the dead) Jesus Christ our Lord; Rom 1:4 Darby with my insert - out of resurrection of dead ones

It pictures what will take place with us also.

Luke 20:36 for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

Will the thief need to experience that to be remembered when Jesus comes in his kingdom?

What was Jesus promising him that day they died together, the Just for the unjust?