What are your thoughts on Jesus quoting "Ye are gods" ?

[TomLaPalm]

a note on the reasons for rejection of Mormonism

1. The rejection of Deity of Christ, rejection of Holy Spirit as a person.

2. All spiritual beings from Heaven must go through humanity (test) to enter heaven.


Luk 15:31
And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Only sin causes separation from God , not a test

4. Final events that will elevate the earth to Heaven,

 

[Darrell C]

Why do you think i have suggested universal salvation? This is an example of the bias i mentioned.

Your posts have sounded as though you reject the notion that God created knowing that some men will reject Him and end up in Hell.

Thanks for clarifying that you do understand this is the case.

Let me be clear, WE are the bad guys, We are condemned already.

Again...who are you arguing with about this?

That is my position.

Inherited sin is a fallacy.

Again...who are you arguing about this with.

That too is my position.

But, my view does not have the spirits of men preexisting their conception. Men are the product of procreation, not spirits sent here to inhabit flesh.

And this is the problem, Tom, you know your doctrine is going to be rejected so you beat around the bush.

Men are born condemned at birth because Man lost relationship with God through the Fall. The Redemption of Man has nothing to do with preexisting spirits.

Men are not gods, never have been, never will be.

We are spiritual beings who sin.

No, Tom, that is only half the picture. We are spiritual/physical beings who sin, unlike Angels/Demons, who are spiritual beings who can sin apparently.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Those who accept a pardon(redeem) will go to heaven,, Those who do not will (already condemned) go to hell (prepared for the devil and his angels).

We agree on this, where we disagree is your view of preexistence.

compare: That is the Youngs Literal , less bias

I am not a fan of Young's, it is dry, and because of the lack of clarification on several issues is used by certain to proof-text certain doctrinal positions.

'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance,
and
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
and

Men are not the Angels that kept not their first estate.

Notice they are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

If you study Jude and 2 Peter you will see that there is no suggestion of redemption among them.

They are contrasted with men, not equated to them.

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The children are not demons, Tom.

The children in view are those given to Christ from among men:


Hebrews 2:13-16

King James Version (KJV)

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


We can't say He did not take on the nature of Angels if He became what Angels became.

This alone denies your doctrine.

Now the words of Jesus
Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Physical birth is first, spiritual birth is second, both are required to enter the reign of God.

Again...who are you arguing with about this?

The problem I see is you do not see physical birth first, and because you will not clearly declare your positions you go round and round.

Men begin their existence at conception, they did not preexist as spirits, as Angels, or as anything.

Tom, a little advice: if you cannot declare your doctrine openly, you should consider there is a reason for that.


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

We agree on this, where we disagree is your view of preexistence.



I am not a fan of Young's, it is dry, and because of the lack of clarification on several issues is used by certain to proof-text certain doctrinal positions.



Men are not the Angels that kept not their first estate.

Notice they are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

If you study Jude and 2 Peter you will see that there is no suggestion of redemption among them.

They are contrasted with men, not equated to them.




The children are not demons, Tom.

The children in view are those given to Christ from among men:


Hebrews 2:13-16

King James Version (KJV)

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


We can't say He did not take on the nature of Angels if He became what Angels became.

This alone denies your doctrine.




Again...who are you arguing with about this?

The problem I see is you do not see physical birth first, and because you will not clearly declare your positions you go round and round.

Men begin their existence at conception, they did not preexist as spirits, as Angels, or as anything.

Tom, a little advice: if you cannot declare your doctrine openly, you should consider there is a reason for that.


God bless.

formula,

souls of men = fallen elohyim not angels , which describes a duty or occupation

who else of God's creation needs redemption?
If God chooses to redeem one created being and not another, He contradicts His own statements otherwise. "Let God be true and everyman accursed"

You have agreed man is a spiritual being, the physical vessel begins at conception, Prove the spiritual does the same.

The lost men and fallen angels are in the same place , same time , same condition, for the same reason, and described similarly, same destination.

Redeemed men and "angels in the natural state are also described similarly.

God is reconciling Heaven by redeeming sinners through the flesh and blood we share with Jesus.

Elohyim are uniquely and individually created , no brotherhood, with God as the Father. One death could not pat for all. But as mankind, one could and did.

Mankind was created as the method to offer a pardon to sinners, same sinners in a flesh and blood vessel.

see how humanism fights this,
Glorifying humanity is like cheering the life preserver thrown to a drowning person while ignoring the person. and how the person came to be in peril

God said He doesn't judge man and Jesus said the same. So I was condemned as a spirit before I became a human, God put me here in this time and place of His choosing, if I am redeemed, it is to His glory

 

[TomLaPalm]

Darrell,
I do need to apologize , As you can tell, I do not post well and certainly do not a presentation prepared for this position.

 

[Darrell C]

formula,

souls of men = fallen elohyim not angels , which describes a duty or occupation

Great...give me a Scripture for that.


Isaiah 45:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


Show me where the souls of men are 'elohiym , you cannot even show me that soul=immaterial aspect of men.

You say here it describes a duty or aspect, which defeats your own argument, Tom.

who else of God's creation needs redemption?

You are forgetting that Creation itself groans, awaiting redemption...


Romans 8:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


But nowhere do we see mention of Angels being redeemed, and nowhere do we see any hint of preexistence.

Again...that is the doctrine of cults.

If God chooses to redeem one created being and not another, He contradicts His own statements otherwise. "Let God be true and everyman accursed"

Pardon?

God contradicts Himself because He has no intention of redeeming the only spirits we know in Scripture that fell?

You have agreed man is a spiritual being, the physical vessel begins at conception, Prove the spiritual does the same.

Here is the first man to come into existence:


Genesis 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Yet you speak of "souls" as preexisting.

That is not the case with Adam.

The lost men and fallen angels are in the same place , same time , same condition, for the same reason, and described similarly, same destination.

No, Tom, not for the same reason.

That is your false anthropology.

Here is where man fell under condemnation:


Romans 5:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


That one man is clearly shown to be Adam, and this is how sin entered the world according to Scripture.

You have thrown off Biblical Doctrine and embraced the doctrine of cults.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Redeemed men and "angels in the natural state are also described similarly.

Dogs, pigs, and men are also described similarly.

God is reconciling Heaven by redeeming sinners through the flesh and blood we share with Jesus.

No, Tom...Heaven is not reconciled. You are reading into Colossians your theology and Angelology.

God does not recreate Heaven when this creation passes, He recreates the heaven and the earth.

And we see another error here...man is not redeemed through taking on flesh. Man is already condemned, and is redeemed through Vicarious Sacrifice. The flesh takes on no real importance, because we see man in flesh and described as in a "good" condition.

It is when man sinned that sin entered the world, not prior to Creation, with the universe created as a prison to house preexisting fallen spirits.

Elohyim are uniquely and individually created , no brotherhood, with God as the Father. One death could not pat for all. But as mankind, one could and did.

Well, which is it? They are created beings, or it is simply beings effecting a duty or occupation.

Can't be both.

Mankind was created as the method to offer a pardon to sinners, same sinners in a flesh and blood vessel.

Mormons would agree with you.

I don't.

see how humanism fights this,

Humanism is entirely irrelevant, and a false argument.

Again, you simply do not understand humanism, and you falsely designate those who deny your doctrine as Biblical as humanistic.

Humanism does not allow for deity.

Glorifying humanity is like cheering the life preserver thrown to a drowning person while ignoring the person. and how the person came to be in peril

False argument. I have asked you to quote me "glorifying humanity." I know you can't, because I do not do that. I, like the Calvinists you also call humanists...embrace the Doctrine of the Depravity of man.

And this is why you continuously stay in the same place theologically...you keep reiterating the same arguments that didn't work the first time around.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

God said He doesn't judge man and Jesus said the same.

God doesn't judge men?

Seriously, Tom?

Exodus 12:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.


Just a Bible Basic.

You didn't learn that from Baptists.

So I was condemned as a spirit before I became a human, God put me here in this time and place of His choosing, if I am redeemed, it is to His glory

Sorry, Tom, but you did not come into existence until you were conceived.

In regards to Sin, it's a Bible Basic that men fell under condemnation through the actions of one man, and that is clearly stated as Adam, and the Lord has given us an account of that Fall.

Didn't happen until after Creation of Man.

Darrell,
I do need to apologize , As you can tell, I do not post well and certainly do not a presentation prepared for this position.

It's okay, Tom, no need to apologize, that's what we are all here doing...learning.

But I would suggest you stop reiterating false arguments and employ more Scripture, as well as address the Scripture provided as a counter.

This will be my last day for a while, perhaps forever, who knows, we don't know what tomorrow holds.

So I will catch up with you, possibly, at another time.


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Great...give me a Scripture for that.


Isaiah 45:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


Show me where the souls of men are 'elohiym , you cannot even show me that soul=immaterial aspect of men.

You say here it describes a duty or aspect, which defeats your own argument, Tom.




You are forgetting that Creation itself groans, awaiting redemption...


Romans 8:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


But nowhere do we see mention of Angels being redeemed, and nowhere do we see any hint of preexistence.

Again...that is the doctrine of cults.




Pardon?

God contradicts Himself because He has no intention of redeeming the only spirits we know in Scripture that fell?




Here is the first man to come into existence:


Genesis 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Yet you speak of "souls" as preexisting.

That is not the case with Adam.




No, Tom, not for the same reason.

That is your false anthropology.

Here is where man fell under condemnation:


Romans 5:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


That one man is clearly shown to be Adam, and this is how sin entered the world according to Scripture.

You have thrown off Biblical Doctrine and embraced the doctrine of cults.


Continued...

No cult doctrine, only Biblical verses and logic to only accept the what the Bible says.

This actually rebukes most cult teaching


Jesus said "Ye are gods" You are not arguing with me. Do you believe it or not?

GOD DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF

your own words Creation groans for REDEMPTION

Adam became a living soul, to distinguish from a "dead" soul. Spiritually dead to spiritually alive or able to respond to spiritual stimuli, You don't accept dead spiritually humans,? Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" The fallen angels cannot respond to spiritual things. It is only offered to one who is human first (John 3)

Sin did enter the physical world through Adam, but not the spiritual world, of which Adam was a part. And not the first sinner.

Prove your point,

What cult says we are the bad guys that were expelled from Heaven and that is the reason we need redemption?

 

[Darrell C]

No cult doctrine, only Biblical verses and logic to only accept the what the Bible says.

This actually rebukes most cult teaching

It's cult doctrine, Tom.

It is one of the doctrines that earned Mormons the title.

There is no logic in redefining 'elohiym, and contradicting the fact that there is One God in Heaven...not many.

When God said "I said ye are gods," it is sarcasm.



God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

It's cult doctrine, Tom.

It is one of the doctrines that earned Mormons the title.

There is no logic in redefining 'elohiym, and contradicting the fact that there is One God in Heaven...not many.

When God said "I said ye are gods," it is sarcasm.



God bless.

There is only ONE GOD elohyim elohyim,, elohyim is simply "heavenly host" God is The Elohyim.

We know there are a multitude of "elohyim" and a third were cast out.

Mormons do not believe men are fallen angels. They believe that all angels are tested as human in order to gain or loose eternal life. NO BODY ADMITS TO BEING "CONDEMNED ALREADY" due to their own sin.

Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whetherthey be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in yourmind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Psa 71:23

My lips shall greatly rejoice when I sing unto thee; and my soul, which thou hast redeemed.





So John 10 is sarcasm? Is Psalms 82 sarcasm? Jon 38:7?

Remember the Prodigal was a son before he sinned.