What Arminians Believe about the Atonement

The Old Covenant in its purest form is "OBey and Live" Adam was born under that covenant.

The New Covenant in its purest form is Justification and the New Birth experience of John 3 (pre-cross) and results in "The Law of God written on the heart) -- in both OT and NT.

One sin problem.

ONE Gospel solution.

In all of time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Gospel message old and new is Man must have faith in God to be seen by God as redeemable. No one lacking faith OT or NT, gets saved! End of the Gospel message!

 

The Gospel message is "Saved by Grace through FAITH NOT of works lest any man should boast".

The Gospel system is the New Covenant ALONE. 2Cor 3 points out that no one is saved under the old Covenant.

The ONE Gospel requires the New Birth even BEFORE the Cross (john 3). The ONE gospel requires sins forgiven even BEFORE the Cross.

The ONE Gospel produced the new birth - new Creation - giants of fiath In the OT - as Heb 11 points out.

The ONE Gospel was preached "to Us JUST as it was to THEM ALSO" Heb 4:1-2.

Those who imagine any other way but Christ alone - imagine "another Gospel".

Those who imagine any other way of acceptance into the Gospel - but faith alone - imagine "another Gospel".

Those who imagine any other change but the New Birth, the New Creation, New Heart, Law written on the tablets of the human heart "imagine another Gospel".

Those who imagine that the word of God is false (OT or NT) imagine "another god".

One sin problem.

ONE Gospel solution.

In all of time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well RobRyan, You are simply going to have to prove that Grace has any saving power to it!

Scriptures tell us we get saved only if we have faith in God! I know you have difficulty with that simple principle, and simple principles seem to be the hardest to grasp because we always look for the "gotcha's".

If you can find one example of a person who, having no faith, was saved by grace, you may be able to win this point. Until you do, you are a coondog barking up the wrong tree!

 

Grace "Alone" causes God to extend the supernatural "Drawing" of all mankind that we see in John 12:32.

I think we can all agree.

God does not wait for mankind to "have faith" and THEN activate the grace that would supernaturally DRAW and ENABLE mankind.

However, having said that - I am not sure how your position has anything to do with the previous assertion that God is wrong in the OT.

You Take PAul in Romans 10 and argue that he is inserting the Old covenant into the New Covenant. In fact HE is quoting the Old TESTAMENT and showing how it fits the NEW Covenant -- and he does so in the NEW Testament text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Wes.
No one is saved without faith this is true but the same is true of grace.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We find grace through faith.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
the two work to gether to bring us Salvation. We are not saved by Grace alone or faith alone.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Thanks Iluvlight, But grace saves no one! Yet, if God were not behaving toward man in grace, no man could be saved. Grace is not the active saving agent, FAITH in God is! If no man had faith in God, there could be no salvation! God, in his grace, does not save those who lack faith in Him.

Grace is the essence of God's behavior toward man, and not the agent that saves man. God himself does the saving, and He saves only those who possess faith in their spirit for God!

God gave us as a gift out of his grace, His Holy Word, from which we are to receive understanding (HEAR) of God's Love, Mercy, Grace, and His Faithfulness (different than faith) toward his created man, who deliberately disobeyed him. It is God's plan to restore man to a close personal relationship with the Holiness that God is, and to provide man with Everlasting life with the Christ who died to make that Everlasting life possible.

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Bob, God's grace is not a commodity that God gives to man! It is instead the manner in which God relates to man. He is being gracious to ALL men the same. There are no "special" graces, those are merely man's perception based on man's position and condition of life. There is no prevenient grace, no saving grace, etc. There is only one grace and that is Eternal God's grace toward man! God's grace has been present for man for som 6000 years, save for the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah! The rest of the "great disasters" have all been the natural result of a "living earth", and not a deliberate act of God!

God's grace does not save, but it does provide man with the environment and the time to hear God's Word, and believe in His Son, Jesus. That alone is Wonderful Grace, but it remains powerless in itself to save even a single human being.

It is said that the truth will set you free! If you will accept the truth you will indeed be set free from the erroneous dogma, that you are adhering to now. You will be able to see God and his wonderful plan for man. Get rid of your foolish restrictions that you place on God! He does not pay them any attention!

 

Hi Wes;

Then are you denying Eph 2:8? It very clearly says the opposite of your view.

If it's alright with you I'll take God's word over the ideas of men any day. We are saved by God's grace because of our faith.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

God's grace is not only at the root of the saving act of God in "So loving the World that He GAVE.." it also at the root of His saving act of sending the Holy Spirit to CONVICT all the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. It also motivates His saving act of dying for our sins. It also precipitates His saving act of living "IN US" the hope of Glory. It also results in His saving act of "Creating in US the new birth, New Creation".

All these saving acts of God are purely the result of His own choice for Grace.

But as you said - He provides this entire Gospel plan of salvation to the World for "God so loved the World that He Gave".

But it is not the "Faith of the World" that causes God to Love, or to Die, or to Draw, or to Convict...

And of course - the Arminian point is that having done all that - God ALSO graciously decided to ENABLE free will via the supernatural DRAWING of mankind to God. Having CHOSEN to ENABLE free will -- God stands "at the door and knocks so that IF ANYONE hears AND chooses to OPEN the door" THEN He will come in - for that part of the Gospel plan.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hell was created for "the Devil and his angels."

Some will prefer to spend eternity with their friends.

"Unless man repents and believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ"

What about the people who repent but don't conclude that Jesus was the messiah?

 

If I owed you $100, and someone else gave you $100 in my name and in my stead, that is, became my bondsman, then I no longer owe you $100 dollars, you have been paid, and if you come to me seeking payment for what has already been paid, then it is you who sins, because you are not dealing with me honestly. You would indeed become the wicked servant who though forgiven for your debts, would not forgive others for their debts to you. </font>[/QUOTE]Would it be a violation of your will or would you consider it "forced" if the person did it as an act of grace without your having asked for it first?

 

Good question!

I understand where you want to take this, and under your scenario you would be right. However for atonement purposes, the only thing paid is the debt incurred.

The only way that personalities might be "smoothed" is for me to seek your forgiveness of the debt, and since the debt owed to you is paid, there need be no forgiveness sought from you. You have been satisfied. However, I become indebted to the one who paid the debt. So if the payment of the debt was not forced upon the payer, that payer simply assumed by indebtedness, and Now whether or not it is my desire, I remain indebted to another for the same amount. If I do not seek relief from the payer, then there can be no forgiveness of the indebtedness until it is paid off.

By the way, we see this happening all the time in the mortgage industry. You make a loan with one financier, he sells the indebtedness to another financier and you get a notice that the transaction occured. You had no say so in the matter!

 

Yes. I thought so. But you didn't really answer the main thrust of it.

That doesn't invalidate my "scenario". I haven't said that anything more nor less than the incurred debt was paid.

No argument.

If so then it would not be an act of grace on the part of the one who paid, would it? But God declares that it is by grace that our debt is paid.

Not if grace is grace and God extends it.

Incomplete analogy. The mortgage industry knows no grace... only debt owed and debt paid.

Only if you introduce a third party who assumes and pays your debt without requiring anything beforehand from you, can you make this illustration complete.

In fact, this person would have to have foreknown your need and made arrangements to pay your debt before you even bought the house.

Would it be a violation of your will or "forced" if someone acted in such a way? Would that person be guilty of some crime or sin if he paid your mortgage off but not your neighbor?

You have given the basis for an excellent illustration. It would never be considered a violation of someone's will to pay their mortgage in total when they couldn't even make a partial payment. It is not a violation of another person's rights if the payer does not likewise rescue them from the debt they rightly owe.

Moreover, the payer not only pays our mortgage... He adopts us and gives us a full inheritance, becomes our Father, and gives us an omnipotent tutor to teach us how to behave like a family member should.

[ May 02, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

If all salvation was - was a get out of jail free card - then Satan could use it as well as anybody else.

The problem is that instead of just "paying your debt and leaving you to live in rebellion as it may please you to do" -- the Gospel solution is "death to self, a New Creation, choosing to Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself...".

So having someone else "do that for you" and "without your consent" is very much "changing your will - against your will".

But IF it was only "paying debt while you are left to sin as you please" -- then no problem - do it for "all mankind" and don't be "partial".

In Christ,

Bob

 

If all salvation was - was a get out of jail free card - then Satan could use it as well as anybody else.</font>[/QUOTE] I didn't suggest that it was... in fact, I suggest just the opposite and it would be those who believe that salvation is an open proposition to anyone who would have difficulty discluding Satan.

My answer would be that Satan will not pursue salvation because it is not in his nature. How would a non-calvinist answer it?

That happens as a direct result of the new nature God imparts also. I think you are confusing the players here. It would not be the calvinistic side of this argument that thinks salvation is a "get out of jail free card" or that you can get saved then do as you please.

What God determines to accomplish in the elect will be accomplished.

Really? If you had cancer and were in a coma and someone administered a treatment that saved your life you would consider that "changing your will - against your will"?

Again, the object of creation is not the salvation of man nor even to satisfy man's sense of "fairness". Creation is for the glory of God.

Paying the debt and leaving one to "sin as you please" does not glorify God. He chooses to progressively reflect Himself in us and promises a final and total redemption to us in the future.

 

#1. It was not in Lucifer's nature to sin.
#2. It is not in Satan's nature to seek death.
#3. It is in everyone's nature to "escape death"

But if by "salvation" one means "the New Birth" -- then Satan will "choose" not to be born again - he will "choose" to remain at war with God.

The supernatural drawing of all mankind to God - done by God the Holy Spirit ENABLES all mankind with "choice" to choose life or death.

Some choose life (although they have sinful natures) and some choose death.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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The problem is that instead of just "paying your debt and leaving you to live in rebellion as it may please you to do" -- the Gospel solution is "death to self, a New Creation, choosing to Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself...".
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Who came up with the "100$ debt paid" scenario?

 

quote:
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So having someone else "do that for you" and "without your consent" is very much "changing your will - against your will".
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AS already stated in the "changed nature" point -- IF that salvation from Cancer meant that you now "hate your family, love Marxism and become racist"...

If that "salvation" meant that your higher brain functions were removed ...

If that "salvation" changed the way you view life so that all your values were upside down and those things you now love -- you then hate -- then "YES" you "might" want to "reconsider" the surgery.

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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But IF it was only "paying debt while you are left to sin as you please" -- then no problem - do it for "all mankind" and don't be "partial". (Rom 2 "No partiality with God")

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Switching topics?

The topic is the 100$ "Salvation" debt "paid".

My point is that if we stick with that topic - and if that is the "limit of what salvation means" then - fine "pay it for all" and indeed be "impartial" when you do it just as God says He is in Romans 2.

Well now we are talking! And of course this becomes a CHOICE -- do you really want to continue in rebellion -- or serve God the rest of your life? Big choice.

So God says "I STAND at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS THE DOOR I will THEN come in and fellowship WITH them".

Pretty much the Arminian story in a nutshell.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Incomplete analogy. The mortgage industry knows no grace... only debt owed and debt paid.</font>[/QUOTE]Nevertheless, the principle remains true! The principle of shuffling an indebtedness among leinholders.