What Bible Verses Support Punishment/Hell Not Being Eternal?

[rstrats]

Old Union Brother,

re: "I do not know where you are coming from."
　
I’m coming from the idea that a loving and merciful supreme being would not torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements. To that end I would think that a person - unless for some reason they want to believe otherwise - would not be trying to interpret verses to support the popular bloodthirsty insistence that he would.

 

[Old Union Brother]

This will be my last post on this thread. It is true that we have a merciful God that extended Grace to us, but I can't get away from the definition of everlasting and eternal.

Even in Daniel everlasting contempt is mentioned:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I am reposting the following verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

The following is from Henry's Bible Commentary on the above verse:

1. The wicked shall go away into everlasting punishment. Sentence will then be executed speedily, and no reprieve granted, nor any time allowed to move in arrest of judgment. The execution of the wicked is first mentioned; for first the tares are gathered and burned. Note, (1.) The punishment of the wicked in the future state will be an everlasting punishment, for that state is an unalterable state. It can neither be thought that sinners should change their own natures, nor that God should give his grace to change them, when in this world the day of grace was misspent, the Spirit of grace resisted, and the means of grace abused and baffled. (2.) The wicked shall be made to go away into that punishment; not that they will go voluntarily, no, they are driven from light into darkness; but it bespeaks an irresistible conviction of guilt, and a final despair of mercy.

The joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked last the same length of time. Eternal.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked last the same length of time. Eternal.

Amen, OUB.

We must not forget that it is God who stated that the wicked would be tormented forever. God cannot lie.

 

[gb93433]

Luke 16: 19-31, "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' "But Abraham said, `Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' "But he said, `No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' "But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

 

[Winman]

Posted under wrong thread

 

[Van]

Reply to Steadfast Fred

Prior to the 1600's, the word 'kolasis' was always translated as 'torment' or 'pain.'

'aionios' is translated as perpetual, or never-ending.

It is clear Jesus was conveying the truth that 'everlasting punishment' meant perpetual or never-ending torment.

Should we assume the modern translations got it wrong when they translate Kolasis as punishment, rather than torment or pain? Should we discard modern scholarship in order support doctrine based on assumption? I think not. The root meaning of the word has to do with penal confinement, rather than torment.

 

[westtexas]

　
I’m coming from the idea that a loving and merciful supreme being would not torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements. To that end I would think that a person - unless for some reason they want to believe otherwise - would not be trying to interpret verses to support the popular bloodthirsty insistence that he would.

rstrats, I haven't been around this forum long enough to read many of your posts, but I'm assuming from this thread that you believe in annihilationism. Luke 16 has been quoted above. How do you explain away words spoken by our Lord where the rich man clearly states "I am tormented in this flame (16:24 KJV)"? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Westtexas

 

[mandym]

I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? Who does that benefit? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

The problem you have is that you minimize their rejection of God. You seem to treat it as if eternal punishment is to much for their actions. This also minimizes the Holiness of God. Personally I don't care what God does with them. But I know what God does with them and to down play the value of sin just because you have your own standard and a myopic view of the word death is to distort scripture and misrepresent who God is.

God is a Holy and righteous God and to break that standard deserves eternal punishment or whatever He designs. The haughty attitude that goes into thinkingGod's punishment is undeserved is astounding. God loved us when He sent His Son to the cross. Those who reject Him do so because they are full of hate and rebellion. Not because it is beyond their means to do so.

 

[Van]

Advocating speculation

There is no question that those whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. There is no question that the fire is eternal for Satan and his co-horts suffer forever and ever. There is no question that the lost suffer torment. So what is possible is after a person is punished justly for their misdeeds, they are destroyed, rather than eternal torment. The punishment, confinement, separation from God, will certainly be eternal.

What makes this a possible option is no verse says eternal torment for humans, with the caveat that some posters say the word translated punishment actually means torment. And the verse that says the smoke from their torment will rise forever and ever might be referring to the ongoing generation of smoke from torment. That is why the majority of people accept the speculation.

For me the issue is not justifying either eternal torment or destruction after being tormented according to God's justice for misdeeds, the issue is folks spreading disunity who claim either view is doctrine when it is based on assumptions.

 

[mandym]

There is no question that those whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. There is no question that the fire is eternal for Satan and his co-horts suffer forever and ever. There is no question that the lost suffer torment. So what is possible is after a person is punished justly for their misdeeds, they are destroyed, rather than eternal torment. The punishment, confinement, separation from God, will certainly be eternal.

What makes this a possible option is no verse says eternal torment for humans, with the caveat that some posters say the word translated punishment actually means torment. And the verse that says the smoke from their torment will rise forever and ever might be referring to the ongoing generation of smoke from torment. That is why the majority of people accept the speculation.

For me the issue is not justifying either eternal torment or destruction after being torments according to God's justice for misdeeds, the issue is folks spreading disunity who claim either view is doctrine when it is based on assumptions.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


The fire is eternal, it was originally created for Satan, and those who reject Christ will be placed there. No scripture suggests that there will be removal from this condition once placed. That would be an assumption, not the other.

 

[Van]

They could be destroyed after being tormented justly or an unknown duration. What verse or passage says otherwise. Answer none. Why push doctrine based on speculation without solid support in scripture.

 

[mandym]

They could be destroyed after being tormented justly or an unknown duration. What verse or passage says otherwise. Answer none. Why push doctrine based on speculation without solid support in scripture.

I gave solid support. Just because you pose a question does not lend to the possibility of your assertion. Your idea is not even in view anywhere in scripture.

 

[westtexas]

They could be destroyed after being tormented justly or an unknown duration. What verse or passage says otherwise. Answer none. Why push doctrine based on speculation without solid support in scripture.

Scripture disagrees with your view. Matt. 25:46 in the Greek uses the same word, in the same sentence, with the same duration, for the punishment of the unrighteous and the reward of the righteous. Kolasin aionios-eternal punishment and zoen aionios-eternal life. You can't have it both ways. I'm sure you'll agree that our reward is eternal, so conversely, the punishment of the unrighteous is also eternal.
Matt. 25:46 (...KOLASIN AIONIOS oi de dikaioi eis ZOEN AIONIOS)
Westtexas

 

[percho]

Scripture disagrees with your view. Matt. 25:46 in the Greek uses the same word, in the same sentence, with the same duration, for the punishment of the unrighteous and the reward of the righteous. Kolasin aionios-eternal punishment and zoen aionios-eternal life. You can't have it both ways. I'm sure you'll agree that our reward is eternal, so conversely, the punishment of the unrighteous is also eternal.
Matt. 25:46 (...KOLASIN AIONIOS oi de dikaioi eis ZOEN AIONIOS)
Westtexas

Does punishment and punishing mean the same thing? If the wages of sin is death and that is the punishment so are you eternally dead?

 

[Salty]

They could be destroyed after being tormented justly or an unknown duration. What verse or passage says otherwise. Answer none. Why push doctrine based on speculation without solid support in scripture.

Okay Van - on the other hand - could it be they will eventually make it to Heaven. Can you prove with a Bible verse that will never happen

 

[westtexas]

If the wages of sin is death and that is the punishment so are you eternally dead?

Percho, I'll let you look up the scriptures I'll quote to keep my post shorter. What is death? Scripture says it is a separation. The first death (physical death) is the separation of the body and the spirit-- James 2:26. The second death is a separation from God. Isaiah 59:2 says "your iniquities have separated you and your God". Eph. 2:1 the saints were alive but scripture says they were dead in their sins. 2 Thess. 1:9 says the unrighteous will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. At the judgement, scripture states our Lord says to the unrighteous, "Depart from me". Fortunately the second death will not effect the righteous (Rev.20:6). Scripture is quite clear. The separation from God for the unrighteous is eternal and according to Luke 16 is quite unpleasant. "I am tormented in this flame"
Westtexas

 

[percho]

Percho, I'll let you look up the scriptures I'll quote to keep my post shorter. What is death? Scripture says it is a separation. The first death (physical death) is the separation of the body and the spirit-- James 2:26. The second death is a separation from God. Isaiah 59:2 says "your iniquities have separated you and your God". Eph. 2:1 the saints were alive but scripture says they were dead in their sins. 2 Thess. 1:9 says the unrighteous will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. At the judgement, scripture states our Lord says to the unrighteous, "Depart from me". Fortunately the second death will not effect the righteous (Rev.20:6). Scripture is quite clear. The separation from God for the unrighteous is eternal and according to Luke 16 is quite unpleasant. "I am tormented in this flame"
Westtexas

Are there presently at this moment those who have died that are in torments in the fires of hell? Will they be resurrected from this torment appear before God for judgement and then be cast back into the torment of the fires of hell to be seperated forever from God?

The gift of God is eternal life in the presence of God but the wages of sin is to be seperated from God in eternal torment in a place called hell.

Between the time a Christian dies in the flesh but before he recevies his house made without hands eternal in the heavens which I assume he recevies at a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump when Christ returns Does he have eyes and a tongue and fingers and so forth? This would go for one that died without Christ also.

From the time of the sin of Adam man has been seperated from God. It was the shed blood of Christ that reconciled man back to God. He can now come before God.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The death. What kind of death would satisfy God as payment for the sin of mankind? Seperation of the body and spirit or seperation from God?


Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

 

[Van]

Reply to Westtexas

Scripture disagrees with your view. Matt. 25:46 in the Greek uses the same word, in the same sentence, with the same duration, for the punishment of the unrighteous and the reward of the righteous. Kolasin aionios-eternal punishment and zoen aionios-eternal life. You can't have it both ways. I'm sure you'll agree that our reward is eternal, so conversely, the punishment of the unrighteous is also eternal.
Matt. 25:46 (...KOLASIN AIONIOS oi de dikaioi eis ZOEN AIONIOS)
Westtexas

You seem to equate punishment with torment.
Punishment can include both torment and eternal confinement separated from God. Therefore I am not trying to have it both ways. Scripture does not disagree with me. Eternal Punishment and Eternal Darkness could mean confinement - separation from God for eternity. And in addition, the confinement in Hades or Gehenna does include torment, but to say the duration of the torment is eternal or to say the duration of the torment is limited requires making assumptions that take scripture too far, in my opinion.

 

[rstrats]

westtexas,

re: "...I'm assuming from this thread that you believe in annihilationism."

Given the choice between eternal torment and eternal annihilation, then eternal annihilation it is.
　

re: " How do you explain away words spoken by our Lord where the rich man clearly states "I am tormented in this flame..."

I don’t. The parable says what it says, and it doesn’t say how long the "torment" lasts.

 

[Van]

Reply to Salty

Okay Van - on the other hand - could it be they will eventually make it to Heaven. Can you prove with a Bible verse that will never happen

One of the red flags I see in discussions is when one poster says the other poster must "prove" something. I can refer to scripture which demonstrates to my satisfaction that the punishment of the lost is eternal. But does the same verse "prove" the same thing to others? Not if you redefine eternal to mean limited duration. I believe John 3:16 "proves" eternal means never ending. And so Matthew 25:46 "proves it" to me.