What can I learn about Individual Growth, Evangelism and Church Growth...

Therefore, I ask you again, what practical information does Rick Warren give us about Individual Growth, Evangelism and Church Growth that cannot be found in the Bible? Does he address how to obtain visas for mission trips? I must have missed that chapter.

Joseph Botwinick

 

The Bible tells us to study to show thyself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. I might read a History book, a book about Apocalyptic literature, or study Hebrew Grammers to help me understand the context of the history, literary genre, or the language of the Bible. However, when it comes to Individual Growth, Evangelism, and Church Growth, I look to the Bible itself as my guide and standard, not a program written by Rick Warren.

Joseph Botwinick

 

That raises the question: has anyone actually done such a thing with PDL? Or with any other man-made book? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I have. I have seen at least one church where the pastor and other church leaders kept saying, Rick Warren says this, Rick Warren says that, study show this, as if it were the Gospel. The thing I noticed that was even more distrubing is that the more they talked about what Rick Warren and studies in Church growth had to say, the less they discussed what the Bible had to say. It got to the point one Sunday where the pastor prominently displayed the PDL on the side of the pulpit during his sermon and had his notes on the lectern, but no Bible in hand. They say Rick Warren's teaching are straight from the Bible. If this is true, then why not just study the Bible? Is it because many don't read the Word these days? If so, why not? Is it because the latest church growth fad out of California has taken its place, a little at a time? We need to get back to the Word of God and become people of the Word. Once we do that, we will know our purpose and have no need for the PDL. The Bible is more than sufficient to teach us our purpose in life, and how God wants us to go about accomplishing that purpose.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joey does your church never use any materials for Bible Study. Sunday School books...Etc?

It is just a study dude chill out on the warren hating. </font>[/QUOTE]1. Yes they do. I don't like that either. If we are going to study the Bible, then why not use the Bible? Most Sunday School materials I have seen tend to jump around, skip verses, and end up not being a study of the Bible, but a study of a particular author's pet agenda.

2. I don't have time or need for hate. Asking questions and making observations / criticism of Warren and his material is not the same thing as hate. You understand the difference, right?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Larry,

Did you read my post right above your that is quoted here? Perhaps, you will gain a bit of understanding from it if you take the time to read what I said. BTW, I am not against Rick Warren or his book as much as I am an advocate of the Bible.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I FEEL there is actually a lot you can learn about the Purpose-Driven® Life that is not in the Bible. For instance, you can learn how to achieve the ultimate in human fulfillment by finding your purpose and making Jesus Christ a part of your life. You can learn that nothing is more satisfying and fulfilling as Jesus, and when you add Him onto your life a lot of good things happen. With Jesus, you get a new best friend, become spiritual and you get connected in a real way to many others who are becoming spiritual by adding Jesus to their lives. You learn there is such a thing as a purpose in life that provides real harmony and a real sense that you're really OK and so is everyone else, if they can only find their purpose. You learn how being accepted by your new family and being in harmony with them through consensus gains you the freedom and security you always knew existed. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you telling me that none of this is taught in the Bible? Surely, you are not that ignorant of the Bible are you?

You know it's all real because everyone has signed a covenant of commitment to the program or church just like you have. [/QUOTE]

You're not really that gullible, are you?

You learn that as good as all that is, you also get eternal life. And if you have made mistakes, it's not necessary to feel bad about yourself or feel guilty about it because Jesus has taken care of all that. You learn that the future is gonna be great but for now there's a life to be filled up by allowing yourself to be passionately driven by your purpose.[/QUOTE]

This isn't in the Bible? Have you ever read the Bible?

But it doesn't stop there. You also learn how God has revealed the Bible in a new and glorious way and that God is everywhere and in everything and will share his secrets with you.[/QUOTE]

New Revelation? Interesting. What secrets is God going to share with me that is not in the Bible? Please enlighten me, oh keeper of all secret knowledge.

You learn that the simpleton, narrow, stale, judgmental Christianity that everyone despises and you have never wanted anything to do with was inferior anyway.[/QUOTE]

Stupid me. I always thought the wisdom of God was folly to the lost and dying world, and that God had made the foolish wise, and the wise foolish. I will have to make sure I go back and make that correction in my Bible. Thanks for showing me what PDL teaches that I can't learn from the Bible. I think I understand the arrogance, judgemental spirit, and heresy of it now.

You learn how to incorporate modern advances in psychology and New Age techniques and see that these ideas and principles are actually woven into the Bible and have been there all along, patiently waiting for humanity to evolve to the required plane of understanding.[/QUOTE]


So, basically, I learn the heresies of the New Age movement and humanism. Thanks, but no. I will stick with the simpleton, folly of the Cross.

You learn how to appreciate the benefits of all this as you look back and see how blessed you are to be a Christian in such a loving, enlightened age of excellence that is not at all antiquated, dry, dull, or most important of all, judgmental.[/QUOTE]

An enlightened age that has government sanctioned murder of the unborn, international terrorism, Fred Phelps, and the charasmatic movement which endorses barking in the spirit, God as a Christian genie, and all other sorts of heresies. Thanks, but no. I think I will stick with the simpleton, folly of the cross. I am thinking, BTW, that somebody by the name of Iveyleaguer thinks just a bit too high of himself and his enlightenment. Remember that simpleton teaching in the Bible about pride coming before the fall?

Even though it's not about you,[/QUOTE]

From what you have described, you're right. But it certainly is not about God and his Word either. It sounds more like it is about you and your enlightenment into the New Age and how to justify it.

there are many more benefits you could learn about that could be mentioned if space permitted. But it's important to know that if you're fortunate enough to be involved in one of God's Purpose-Driven® programs, or better yet a committed Purpose-Driven® church, you get to take a test devised by Carl Jung and adapted by Rick Warren that will discern your spiritual gifts.Chances are the results will be evaluated by your personal evaluator provided to you at no charge so you can learn where and how you fit in God's Purpose-Driven® plan. [/QUOTE]

Oh goody! A test of my SPIRITUAL gifts based on the wisdom of man inside of a PSYCHOLOGICAL test created to explore the meanings and interpretations of my subconscious mind. Hooray for enlightenment.

But perhaps most important of all, and because it's not about you, you learn the value of unity (connectivity) and community.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever read the letters of Paul to the Church of Corinth? I think the Bible has it covered.

This value is driven home by your small group facilitator and when you sign a document pledging to never question your leaders about anything[/QUOTE]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Now, we understand the true lessons of the PDL. Obey your masters and never, ever, ever, question them. We are the Borg. Drop all your defenses and surrender, or else you will be destroyed. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Thanks for your invitation to the New Age enlightenment of dictatorial tyranny, but I think I will stick with the simpleton folly of the cross and the freedom it brings.

or do anything to disrupt the unity of the community. You learn that this step is mandatory for you to fulfill your purpose as a member of the Purpose-Driven® kingdom, but you don't mind because all the new relationships you now have are worth the commitment.[/QUOTE]

What if someone is teaching false doctrine? Should you just shut up for the sake of unity?

None of that is in the Bible[/QUOTE]

You are partially correct there.

but, as you are learning by now, there is a lot about being a Christian that isn't in the Bible. Also, there is one very important thing you learn that IS in the Bible that teaches you to feel real good about yourself, Rick, and God's Purpose-Driven® Life. It says, "by their fruits ye shall know them" which probably should be translated "if they are successful you will know that I am with them and behind it all". [/QUOTE]

If they are successful, they are Christians? HMMMMMMMMM. Did you learn that enlightened heresy from Ken and Gloria Copeland by chance?

And you learn that in case you forget that Biblical truth someone will be there to remind you, maybe even Rick himself.[/QUOTE]

Or, I could just continue reading the Bible so that I dont forget the truth.

There's much more to learn that might not be in the Bible unless you know how to look for it, like Rick does. But it all goes along with the Bible. [/QUOTE]

If only we were as enlightened as Rick Warren was. Stupid me. I always thought that the Holy Spirit would enlighten me to the truths of the Bible as I read it. If the PDL is everything you have just described, I would have to take exception with that last sentence. It might, perhaps, be true in some liberal church...who knows?

One of the best is learning that this second Reformation, as Rick calls it, is as peaceful and loving as the first Reformation was violent and divisive. Like millions have discovered, it's a real win-win situation. God is awesome! [/QUOTE]

Except it isn't Biblical if it is everything you just described above, and is in fact, full of the spirit of Anti-Christ. But, I am glad I am not full of the enlightenment of the world as you are. I will stick with the simpleton message of the Bible.

Joseph Botwinick