What can unregenerate man do?

[jbh28]

Well, then you are not a consistent Calvinist (I do not know what you are).

But many Calvinists say that an unregenerate man cannot not do one good thing, that everything he does must be evil. That has been said in this very thread.

You agreed that Cain could do good. You are correct, because that is exactly what God said. And it was truly good, because God said he would be accepted.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Some here say that the unregenerate can appear to do good, but it is not true good because it is marred by evil motives or some other affect. But God said if Cain did good it would be accepted, therefore Can could have done true good.

Well, that's a problem. Calvinism says the unregenerate cannot do true good. Therefore, Cain must have been regenerate. But we know Cain was lost.

Think about it awhile and you will see Gen 4:7 absolutely refutes Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.

Good topic. I halfway agree and halfway disagree. Let's discuss in another thread.

 

[Winman]

Good topic. I halfway agree and halfway disagree. Let's discuss in another thread.

Why start another thread? This is the very question of this thread, of whether the unregenerate can do true good?

Gen 4:7 says Cain could have done true good, because God said he would be accepted (unless you believe God would accept evil). We know Cain was lost, therefore we know the unregenerate has the ability to do true good.

It's really very simple and straightforward to those who do not hold a bias.

 

[Winman]

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinism teaches that a person must have life (be regenerated) in order to have the ability to believe, but John 20:31 clearly says a person must believe to have life (be regenerated).

If the unregenerate must believe in order to have life, then the unregenerate must be able to do some true good, for to believe on Jesus Christ is true good.

Does that make sense?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinism teaches that a person must have life (be regenerated) in order to have the ability to believe, but John 20:31 clearly says a person must believe to have life (be regenerated).

If the unregenerate must believe in order to have life, then the unregenerate must be able to do some true good, for to believe on Jesus Christ is true good.

Does that make sense?

Ive been a calvinist for 20 years......now Im convinced because of these arguments

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Luke

Honest question, how do YOU know that YOU are of the household of faith?

Dave....let me reverse that...how do you know?

 

[Winman]

Ive been a calvinist for 20 years......now Im convinced because of these arguments

Well, in twenty years I've never met a Calvinist that can understand scripture.

John 20:31 says you have to believe to have life. It's very simple and straightforward. Only someone who has been indoctrinated to believe otherwise cannot understand.

You cannot possibly have life until you first believe, because until you believe on Jesus you are dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot be regenerated before you believe, because then you would be regenerated and dead in your sins at the same time.

 

[freeatlast]

On two different threads this has been a matter of debate. It is worthy of more discussion.

Feel free to address any Calvinism vs Arminianism issues on this thread.

But here is the main issue here:

Can unregenerate man do "good" things as God defines goodness?

Is there REAL goodness apart from the way God defines goodness?

There is no doubt that unregenerate man can do things that men consider goodness, but is it not done with godless motives? Can something be good and godless?

Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?

Does that really even make sense?

And finally, address this situation.

John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why?

The question is valid because for what ever reason each went where he went will be the same reason any goes where he goes.

This scenario will be followed with several "why" questions until we get to the bottom of it.

Because of the depth of the questions I am only going to try and respond to one.
"Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?
Does that really even make sense?"

I think that when speaking of man being dead one has to at some point come to a limit in the area that everything is impossible to him in regards to God. How is being able to believe associated with being dead in our sin? While God does the calling we have to decide to accept or refuse that call. While I understand this raises the brow of the ultra group yet if man has no ability to respond to God then the call is a waste of time. Just pump into him acceptance or belief. The other thing that is left is for God to pump into man the acceptance along with the call. In that case this would make man a puppet that can only respond, unless we also want to say that when God pumps a call into man for some He also pumps in a rejection and then blames man for not responding.
So can an unregenerate man turn to Christ? Yes I think He can, but not without a call, and according to scripture God calls all men.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, in twenty years I've never met a Calvinist that can understand scripture.

John 20:31 says you have to believe to have life. It's very simple and straightforward. Only someone who has been indoctrinated to believe otherwise cannot understand.

You cannot possibly have life until you first believe, because until you believe on Jesus you are dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot be regenerated before you believe, because then you would be regenerated and dead in your sins at the same time.

Listen , your argument is with Luke take it up with him. Im content in my belief system & dont impose it on anyone but you are obviously on the attack....Why?

 

[Winman]

Listen , your argument is with Luke take it up with him. Im content in my belief system & dont impose it on anyone but you are obviously on the attack....Why?

The thread is about what unregenerate man can do. The unregenerate man must be able to believe, because you cannot have life until you believe.

We are justified by FAITH. You cannot possibly have your sins forgiven until you believe on Jesus for justification. Therefore, you cannot possibly be spiritually alive until your sins are forgiven. The wages of sin is death. As long as you are in your sins you are condemned and spiritually dead.

Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith. That is impossible. You cannot be regenerated and dead in trespasses and sins at the same time. You cannot possibly be regenerated until all your sins are forgiven. You cannot be forgiven unless you believe on Jesus. Therefore, faith must precede regeneration.

You are the one who jumped in with the smart remark. If you can't handle the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The thread is about what unregenerate man can do. The unregenerate man must be able to believe, because you cannot have life until you believe.

We are justified by FAITH. You cannot possibly have your sins forgiven until you believe on Jesus for justification. Therefore, you cannot possibly be spiritually alive until your sins are forgiven. The wages of sin is death. As long as you are in your sins you are condemned and spiritually dead.

Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith. That is impossible. You cannot be regenerated and dead in trespasses and sins at the same time. You cannot possibly be regenerated until all your sins are forgiven. You cannot be forgiven unless you believe on Jesus. Therefore, faith must precede regeneration.

You are the one who jumped in with the smart remark. If you can't handle the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen.

What smart remark?

 

[Winman]

Because of the depth of the questions I am only going to try and respond to one.
"Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?
Does that really even make sense?"

I think that when speaking of man being dead one has to at some point come to a limit in the area that everything is impossible to him in regards to God. How is being able to believe associated with being dead in our sin? While God does the calling we have to decide to accept or refuse that call. While I understand this raises the brow of the ultra group yet if man has no ability to respond to God then the call is a waste of time. Just pump into him acceptance or belief. The other thing that is left is for God to pump into man the acceptance along with the call. In that case this would make man a puppet that can only respond, unless we also want to say that when God pumps a call into man for some He also pumps in a rejection and then blames man for not responding.
So can an unregenerate man turn to Christ? Yes I think He can, but not without a call, and according to scripture God calls all men.

Yes, this is correct. I in no way would ever say that man on his own can be saved. Man must answer the call. Man must first hear the word of God.

Paul asked how a man can possibly believe on Jesus unless he has heard of him.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul first says that whosoever calls on Jesus for salvation shall be saved. But then he asks how it is possible for a man to call on Jesus unless he first believes on him.

And that is important. Unless a man truly believes that Jesus is the Son of God who died for his sins, he is not going to call on Jesus.

But then Paul asks how any man can believe on Jesus if they have not heard of him? They can't.

I called on Jesus when I was a boy to save me, but it didn't come from myself. I first heard the word of God that told me I was a lost sinner, and then I heard the word of God that told me God's Son Jesus died for my sins. Then I heard from the word of God that if I called on Jesus I would be saved.

So, I get no credit. Unless God had taught me by his word I would be in darkness and lost forever. Only because God revealed his Son Jesus to me did I get saved. So God gets all the credit.

Jesus said for a man to be saved he must be taught and learn from the Father. This is through God's word which he revealed to mankind through prophets.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Natural man would not imagine the truth of the gospel if he lived a million years. Man will always choose to believe he can save himself through his own merit.

It is only because God has revealed the gospel to us that any man could be saved. If God had not revealed his word to us, we would all be in darkness and hopelessly lost forever.

But natural man can respond to God. God has the power to speak to spiritually dead men. Adam and Eve were dead in sins, yet they heard God call them and they came to God. God killed an innocent animal representing Jesus and clothed them, this represents Jesus's righteousness that is imputed to those that believe on Jesus.

You cannot be spiritually alive until all your sins are forgiven. You cannot have your sins forgiven until you believe on Jesus. Therefore you cannot be regenerated, that is, made spiritually alive until you believe on Jesus and have all your sins forgiven.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If we all had Christ sitting here would any of us be acting the way we are acting.....Who cares Calvinist, non-Cal, Arminian Etc. If we are all claiming the blood of Jesus & that He is Savior, do you think we should be talking like this....Brothers, come on....Our commonality is our being children of the Father & Id advise we stop ripping each other down & instead discuss things like bringing sinners to Christ. This whole thread is designed to create disharmony....I suggest we close it & move on to positive topics cause this accomplishes nothing.

 

[quantumfaith]

Dave....let me reverse that...how do you know?

Let me be more general, how does Anyone KNOW?

 

[quantumfaith]

Because of the depth of the questions I am only going to try and respond to one.
"Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation?
Does that really even make sense?"

I think that when speaking of man being dead one has to at some point come to a limit in the area that everything is impossible to him in regards to God. How is being able to believe associated with being dead in our sin? While God does the calling we have to decide to accept or refuse that call. While I understand this raises the brow of the ultra group yet if man has no ability to respond to God then the call is a waste of time. Just pump into him acceptance or belief. The other thing that is left is for God to pump into man the acceptance along with the call. In that case this would make man a puppet that can only respond, unless we also want to say that when God pumps a call into man for some He also pumps in a rejection and then blames man for not responding.
So can an unregenerate man turn to Christ? Yes I think He can, but not without a call, and according to scripture God calls all men.

I like that. Thanks for sharing that truth.

 

[Winman]

If we all had Christ sitting here would any of us be acting the way we are acting.....Who cares Calvinist, non-Cal, Arminian Etc. If we are all claiming the blood of Jesus & that He is Savior, do you think we should be talking like this....Brothers, come on....Our commonality is our being children of the Father & Id advise we stop ripping each other down & instead discuss things like bringing sinners to Christ. This whole thread is designed to create disharmony....I suggest we close it & move on to positive topics cause this accomplishes nothing.

What you believe and what I believe is very different. You as a Calvinist believes God elects a few fortunate people before they are even born to save them, and passes by many billions of men to let them perish. Besides contradicting many dozens of scriptures that say God desires all men to be saved, it makes God to be cruel. According to Calvinism, if you are not one of the elect, you are plain out of luck. There is nothing you can do whatsoever to be saved. And you are not damned because you are any worse than any other man, you are damned simply because God passes you by. Some Calvinists go so far as to say God does this for his pleasure.

Non-Cals like myself believe that Jesus died for all men everywhere and desires every single one to be saved. God begs and pleads with men to accept his free salvation through Jesus Christ. God does not force himself on anyone, but he does show his love and grace and tries to win the hearts of all men. The God I believe in has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is a good and loving God that wants all men to be saved.

So, this is not some minor difference, it is major.

 

[quantumfaith]

If we all had Christ sitting here would any of us be acting the way we are acting.....Who cares Calvinist, non-Cal, Arminian Etc. If we are all claiming the blood of Jesus & that He is Savior, do you think we should be talking like this....Brothers, come on....Our commonality is our being children of the Father & Id advise we stop ripping each other down & instead discuss things like bringing sinners to Christ. This whole thread is designed to create disharmony....I suggest we close it & move on to positive topics cause this accomplishes nothing.

EWF, no disagreement here, "imagine that" :smilewinkgrin:

It seems that many of the topics on BB seem to turn to C vs. A somehow. The actual truth is very few of us are persuaded from our positions through this debate and at times "rancor".

 

[Winman]

Id advise we stop ripping each other down & instead discuss things like bringing sinners to Christ.

If Calvinism is true, there is nothing you can do to bring any man to Christ. If God did not elect him, he cannot possibly come.

And, if God did elect him, he cannot possibly resist coming.

So, your efforts are absolutely meaningless and a total waste of time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What you believe and what I believe is very different. You as a Calvinist believes God elects a few fortunate people before they are even born to save them, and passes by many billions of men to let them perish. Besides contradicting many dozens of scriptures that say God desires all men to be saved, it makes God to be cruel. According to Calvinism, if you are not one of the elect, you are plain out of luck. There is nothing you can do whatsoever to be saved. And you are not damned because you are any worse than any other man, you are damned simply because God passes you by. Some Calvinists go so far as to say God does this for his pleasure.

Non-Cals like myself believe that Jesus died for all men everywhere and desires every single one to be saved. God begs and pleads with men to accept his free salvation through Jesus Christ. God does not force himself on anyone, but he does show his love and grace and tries to win the hearts of all men. The God I believe in has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is a good and loving God that wants all men to be saved.

So, this is not some minor difference, it is major.

So are you saying I am not a Christian?

 

[jbh28]

Why start another thread? This is the very question of this thread, of whether the unregenerate can do true good?

Yes, I was speaking before if he was born that way.

Gen 4:7 says Cain could have done true good, because God said he would be accepted (unless you believe God would accept evil). We know Cain was lost, therefore we know the unregenerate has the ability to do true good.

On what basis do you say that Cain had the ability? God has commanded that we be holy, but we don't have the ability to be holy. What I don't believe is that Cain wanted to do good but could not. The reason he could not is because he didn't want to. His nature was sinful. The heart is naturally deceitful. It's not that God didn't let Cain do good. It's not that Cain wanted to do good but couldn't. It was against the nature of Cain to do good. He did exactly how he wanted to do. Would God have accepted him if he had done good? Of course, He said he would.

BTW, I believe people go to hell because they are sinners, not because they have a sin nature. People are sinners because that is in their vary nature to do, just as God never lies because it's not in his nature to lie.

It's really very simple and straightforward to those who do not hold a bias.

Well, the bias can go both ways. I've seen people on both sides of the argument talk with a bias.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinism teaches that a person must have life (be regenerated) in order to have the ability to believe, but John 20:31 clearly says a person must believe to have life (be regenerated).

What "life" is it talking about in John 20? It's talking about eternal life. You must believe (faith) in order to have eternal life. It's not talking about regeneration there.

If the unregenerate must believe in order to have life, then the unregenerate must be able to do some true good, for to believe on Jesus Christ is true good.

Does that make sense?

I understand where you come from and I have great respect for you and your position. I believe that regeneration and faith happen at the same time. I don't believe that a person has faith while unregenerate. I don't believe a person can be regenerate without faith. When we are saved, we are in Christ. We are regenerated. We have faith. It's all an instant act of God. Faith is our faith. I believe salvation starts with God in all areas including this one, but I wouldn't say that man can be regenerated without faith any more than I would say that an unregenerate man has faith. Now, can an unregenerate man have faith? He can, but he would be regenerate not unregenerate. No regenerate person is without faith. No person without faith is unregenerate. I believe that regeneration is the starting point logically. God starts it. That's why I believe that an unregenerate man cannot do anything for his salvation. It is an act of God on the heart of the unregenerate. It's not that the unregenerate want's to come to Christ but God won't let him, but that the unregenerate doesn't want to come.

 

[jbh28]

If Calvinism is true, there is nothing you can do to bring any man to Christ. If God did not elect him, he cannot possibly come.

And, if God did elect him, he cannot possibly resist coming.

So, your efforts are absolutely meaningless and a total waste of time.

well, in a way you are right, but your wording isn't correct.

There is nothing you can do to bring any man to Christ. There is something you can do for God as he brings any man to Christ.

If God did not elect him, the person will do exactly as he wants....not come to Christ.

If God did elect him, he will come willingly.

they are not a waste of time. God has elected, but God uses us to spread his gospel to the people of the world. We are the messengers, Jesus is the savior. Unregenerate man doesn't want to come to Christ without the work of God in their heart.

Remember, unregenerate man cannot do anything "good" in the eyes of God, not because he wants to but can't, but he can't because he doesn't want to.