What Constitutes a Work?

[TCGreek]

Where does it say the "saved" must be born again?

Aren't the saved born again?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: 1. "Born of God" is aorist passive and therefore, "Have been born of God" is a correct rendering.

2. Neither does the text say, "believing" or "receiving Him" is a condition for being born of God.

HP: You appear to exhibit quite a vast knowledge of the GK. What about this verse? 1Jo 1:8 ¶” If we say that we have no sin,”

Could a correct rendering of this verse be as follows: “If we say we have not sinned?”

 

[TCGreek]

HP: You appear to exhibit quite a vast knowledge of the GK. What about this verse? 1Jo 1:8 ¶” If we say that we have no sin,”

Could a correct rendering of this verse be as follows: “If we say we have not sinned?”

1. You would have to tell me how is this connected to our discussion.

2. But I would obliged at this time: "If we say we have not sinned" would be to change the Greek noun for "sin" to a verb "sinned" and in a sense to change the meaning of the verse.

 

[BobRyan]

So if a person who has repented and believed says he is born again without ever being baptized in water, Is he truly born again?

Yes - provided that part about not being baptized is not due to a spirit of rebellion on his part. (For example the thief on the cross)

 

[BobRyan]

When you say "condition" do you mean "We repent because we are saved" or "We are saved because we Repent"?

This has a failed assumption.

The correct position is --

We are saved because Christ died for us.

We were drawn to Christ (I will draw ALL unto ME) because Christ died for us.

We are granted the gift of repentance because Christ died for us.

-- The Bible is correct when it calls us to "REPENT AND be baptized".

Initially Repentance is the second act of obedience.

Belief and surrender is the first.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Yes - provided that part about not being baptized is not due to a spirit of rebellion on his part. (For example the thief on the cross)

Interesting, I say.

 

[skypair]

Belief is the first step of anything we ever do. If we do not believe in something we can never fully submit. Would you agree?

Yes.

But just because we believe in Jesus, that in it’s self does not constitute salvation.

Right. "believe in vain" -- "devils believe and tremble" -- etc.

It will take Obedience to Christ.

Sure, just so long as we are agreeing that it is repentance and not baptism, I agree. It is not something PHYSICAL (water) that saves but what happens in the SPIRIT (belief and corresponding change of heart) like Jesus said.

And even the baptism of the Spirit comes AFTER repentance. The one baptized is signifying death of his/her spirit and subsequent regeneration by the Holy Spiri rather than mere justification (forgiveness of sins) alone.

skypair

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: 1. You would have to tell me how is this connected to our discussion.

HP: You have positioned yourself as an authority on the GK language, and as such it is reasonable to assess your consistency in interpretation of GK tenses.

TCG: 2. But I would obliged at this time: "If we say we have not sinned" would be to change the Greek noun for "sin" to a verb "sinned" and in a sense to change the meaning of the verse.

HP: Me thinks you have a decidedly Calvinistic tendency firmly attached to your abilities to render the GK verb tenses which renders your abilities to a level of being rightfully seen as self-serving.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: You have positioned yourself as an authority on the GK language, and as such it is reasonable to assess your consistency in interpretation of GK tenses.


HP: Me thinks you have a decidedly Calvinistic tendency firmly attached to your abilities to render the GK verb tenses which renders your abilities to a level of being rightfully seen as self-serving.

My friend,

1. In the Greek text of 1 John 1:8, "sin" is a noun, not a verb, "sinned."

2. You rearranged the text and asked me about it. I simply was working with the Greek text, which I have opened in front of me.

3. "Sin" in the text is a noun, not a verb.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: John says, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).

4. In Scripture, those who believed have been born of God.

TCG: 1. "Born of God" is aorist passive and therefore, "Have been born of God" is a correct rendering.

HP: You fail to take into consideration that the first part of this verse establishes the order of the verse. When you decide for yourself the rendering of the whole verse, and the order by which one is born again, according to a verb tense that you assert can be rendered in a certain way, but while doing so ignores and destroys the established meaning by the order of the context itself, i.e., to those that receive Him who believed on His name, were born ..of God, establishing clearly a condition for being born of God, you twist the meaning of this text by your own devices.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Martin Luther?: "But in theology we must only hear and believe and be convinced at heart that God is truthful, however absurd that which God says in His Word may appear to be to reason." Martin Luther.

HP: IF Martin Luther is properly credited for this remark, it is one of the most absurd statements I have ever read. It assumes that ones deductions of theology or ideas as to what one feels Scripture is saying to us should be trusted over and above any other revealed truth to man from God. That is again, simply absurd.

One should cease to wonder why so many absurdities are held within the realm of some individuals theology. They have obviously not only failed to properly understand and apply every avenue of truth God has granted to man, but have mentally blocked God's revealed truth from having its needed influence upon ones thinking and subsequent conclusions.

 

[skypair]

HP: You fail to take into consideration that the first part of this verse establishes the order of the verse. When you decide for yourself the rendering of the whole verse, and the order by which one is born again, according to a verb tense that you assert can be rendered in a certain way, but while doing so ignores and destroys the established meaning by the order of the context itself, i.e., to those that receive Him who believed on His name, were born ..of God, establishing clearly a condition for being born of God, you twist the meaning of this text by your own devices.

This is indeed, something to beware of. 2Tim 2:14 -- "charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

skypair

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Skypair: This is indeed, something to beware of. 2Tim 2:14 -- "charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

HP: It is as if one might say, “Because I believe in certain situations a verb tense might be rightfully translated one way, I chose to not only ignore the obvious but claim it is not to be interpreted as Scripture plainly states. I will choose to interpret the verb tense as I would like it to see it interpreted so as to substantiate my presupposition of arbitrary election antecedent to any condition, belief, or intent formed or acted upon by man."

The obvious stated tense of the verb in light of the context it is placed within, and the clear structure and order the sentence presents it in, has been clearly supplanted by the desires directed by ones presuppositions.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: You fail to take into consideration that the first part of this verse establishes the order of the verse. When you decide for yourself the rendering of the whole verse, and the order by which one is born again, according to a verb tense that you assert can be rendered in a certain way, but while doing so ignores and destroys the established meaning by the order of the context itself, i.e., to those that receive Him who believed on His name, were born ..of God, establishing clearly a condition for being born of God, you twist the meaning of this text by your own devices.

1. Now, we're arguing from the order the the verse. Wow! When you think things can't get any weirder!

2. Please, let's not go down that road, for you are opening a can of worms.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: 2. Please, let's not go down that road, for you are opening a can of worms.

HP: And why not? The can is open, what hinders us from partaking together?

 

[Pickettman]

Where in scripture do we find actual hard core evidence of people experiencing the New Birth? Where do we actually see people being “Born Again?”

Scripture is the only source any of us have to find the means of salvation. In John 5:39 Jesus said to search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testify of me.

I know who the audience was that Jesus was speaking to, and I understand that he was speaking of our so called “Old Testament” when he spoke of "Scripture". But isn’t that just as much relevant to us as it was them. We are able to search the Scriptures to find out how we can obtain Eternal life as well.

There has to be examples of people being “Born Again.” Where are they? Who were the people?

Lord Bless

Would someone care to share with me the scriptures I was asking about?

On the weekends my Internet availability is limited, so please forgive me if it takes a while for me to post.

God Bless

 

[TCGreek]

Would someone care to share with me the scriptures I was asking about?

On the weekends my Internet availability is limited, so please forgive me if it takes a while for me to post.

God Bless

How about those examples in the book of Acts as evidence of those who have been born again by the regenerating work of the Spirit.

 

[Pickettman]

How about those examples in the book of Acts as evidence of those who have been born again by the regenerating work of the Spirit

I’m not trying to be a nuisance but could you be specific with your reply? Do you mind giving me Book, Chapter, & verse!

Do you think it’s important for us to follow after their example? I mean do you think what was appropriate for them to do, should it not be appropriate for us as well?

Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

God does not change right? His plan does not change! He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

Lord Bless

 

[skypair]

Would someone care to share with me the scriptures I was asking about?

On the weekends my Internet availability is limited, so please forgive me if it takes a while for me to post.

God Bless

Hey Pickettman!

Try Acts 19:1-4. It is the "crossing" of OT disciples into the rebirth of the NT! You''ll enjoy it. John the Baptist's disciples (OT believers) said they had not even heard that there was a Holy Ghost so Paul teaches them about Jesus, they repent, and they receive the Spirit!

This passage shows the OT saints WEREN'T indwelt -- didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit to be had -- and, in the name of Christ, received Him!

There's a similar story about Apollos in Acts 18:24-26. Love the way Pricilla and Aquilla "expounded to him the faith of God more perfectly" -- that is, teaching him about Christ!

There's a story in Acts 8 also where John and Peter travel to Antioch and meet those who had been converted by Philip but who had not received the Spirit (including Simon Magus). Very interesting as this is where Peter, having the "keys to the kingdom," brings the Spirit to the Gentiles by the laying on of hands.

I should say like TC that Acts is full of such stories (Acts 2 was the first) but some are not as clear as to when and how He is received.

skypair

 

[Pickettman]

Hey Pickettman!

Try Acts 19:1-4. It is the "crossing" of OT disciples into the rebirth of the NT! You''ll enjoy it. John the Baptist's disciples (OT believers) said they had not even heard that there was a Holy Ghost so Paul teaches them about Jesus, they repent, and they receive the Spirit!

This passage shows the OT saints WEREN'T indwelt -- didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit to be had -- and, in the name of Christ, received Him!

There's a similar story about Apollos in Acts 18:24-26. Love the way Pricilla and Aquilla "expounded to him the faith of God more perfectly" -- that is, teaching him about Christ!

There's a story in Acts 8 also where John and Peter travel to Antioch and meet those who had been converted by Philip but who had not received the Spirit (including Simon Magus). Very interesting as this is where Peter, having the "keys to the kingdom," brings the Spirit to the Gentiles by the laying on of hands.

I should say like TC that Acts is full of such stories (Acts 2 was the first) but some are not as clear as to when and how He is received.

skypair

Sky, thanks for your reply!

TC, do you have anything to add?

I think what we need to discuss here is the fact of what these early believers did to fulfill the New Birth.

Acts 8: They believed but did that automatically save them? There’s something there that the bible says that should cause us to think!

1. Phillip preached Christ to them. (Acts 8:5)
2. They believed Phillip (Acts 8:12)
3. They received the Word of God (Acts 8:14)
4. They were baptized (Acts 8:12)
5. They were still not filled with the Spirit of God (Acts 8:16)
6. Peter & Jon prayed for them & they received the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:17)

Were these believers born of the “Water & the Spirit”? What factors hinder us from believing that the “Water” equals Baptism? What factors support that the “Water” equals amniotic fluid?

Acts 19: These followers were believers of Jesus Christ but were they automatically saved?

1. Paul asked “Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye
Believed?” (Acts 19:2)
2. “We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost” (Acts 19:2)
3. Paul asked “How were you baptized?” They said “By John.” (Acts 19:3)
4. They were re-baptized (Acts 19:5)
5. Then they received the Holy Ghost (Acts 19:6)

Now, me being the Sinner that I am, if I followed after these examples, would I truly be born again? Again, what negates the “Water” from meaning baptism? And if the Water equals Baptism then baptism should not be constituted as a work, correct?

God Bless