What determines where you worship?

[Yeshua1]

convince me, then, that doctrinal position has nothing to do with belief, or unbelief, among those who call Christ their Lord and Savior.

I do not believe (belief) Christ died for all mankind as you do, you do not believe (unbelief) Christ died only for a specific number of man, as I do, how then can you say Amen to my prayers, and I to yours ?

I do not feel comfortable with the use of musical instruments of any sort in worship, I do not believe it should be used, at all, while yours is an unbelief in my doctrinal position about musical instruments.
I do not believe in Sunday School being part and parcel of Sunday worship, but you would have Sunday School, are doctrinal positions involved here, or not ?
I do not believe (unbelief) in sending, supporting, and keeping track of the progress of missionaries for the purpose of the eternal salvation of those to whom they go since what I believe is that Christ's blood was sufficient for the eternal redemption of all for whom it was shed, yet, you believe (belief)that while Christ shed His blood and suffered on the cross and resurrected from the dead, it is imperative that sinners come to know Christ, or else....

I do not believe that what you call the Great Commission was given to the church, nor was it for the purpose of saving souls from hell and the lake of fire, you believe what regarding this ?

And by the way, Amos 3:3 is about God and Israel unable to walk together because Israel has walked contrary to God's Word (doctrine, teaching, instruction, oracle, whatever you want to call it).

Do you both believe that Jesus was/is God incarnated?

that his death/resurrection ONLY way to get saved?

That salvation is by Grace alone, thru faith alone?


Did you both receive the same Holy Spirit, Both now in the Body of Christ?

Is He both your Lord?

If yes, then tou and him are in the real church of Christ!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

convince me, then, that doctrinal position has nothing to do with belief, or unbelief, among those who call Christ their Lord and Savior.

I do not believe (belief) Christ died for all mankind as you do, you do not believe (unbelief) Christ died only for a specific number of man, as I do, how then can you say Amen to my prayers, and I to yours ?

Without getting into that debate, as it is off topic, all fundamental articles of faith must be drawn from the Scriptures. The fundamentals are clear in Scripture. Everything essential to saving faith is fundamental. Every doctrine we are forbidden to deny is fundamental. The fundamental doctrines are all summed up in the person and work of Christ.

That said, we both believe Christ died for us. By those standards, what else is necessary? I do not have to believe as you believe to worship with you. In fact, I worship with many who believe as you do. They certainly aren't a majority in any SBC church I know of, but nonetheless, they are there. If you would refuse to worship with me based on my denial of extreme Calvinistic/Reformed teaching, you would be very narrow minded and even somewhat arrogant.

I do not feel comfortable with the use of musical instruments of any sort in worship, I do not believe it should be used, at all, while yours is an unbelief in my doctrinal position about musical instruments.

That isn't a doctrinal position, as it is obvious instruments were used in ancient worship, and it is apparent that songs of praise were sung in the First Century church,and whether one were to accept it or not, it is very likely musical instruments were used in those services as well. The Bible does not speak against musical instruments being used in any form of worship of the One True God, and it cannot be said that the lack of evidence of their use in the First Century church is indicative of a "change of heart and practice" by God regarding instruments. So no, you wouldn't be comfortable in my church, but to blame it on "doctrine" is absurd.

I do not believe in Sunday School being part and parcel of Sunday worship, but you would have Sunday School, are doctrinal positions involved here, or not ?

No. Simple preference. Again, there is no "doctrine" upon which to base that belief. The Bible is silent about it, so it is impossible to say it is forbidden just as it is impossible to say it is endorsed. It is a matter of preference and practice. Nothing more.

I do not believe (unbelief) in sending, supporting, and keeping track of the progress of missionaries for the purpose of the eternal salvation of those to whom they go since what I believe is that Christ's blood was sufficient for the eternal redemption of all for whom it was shed, yet, you believe (belief)that while Christ shed His blood and suffered on the cross and resurrected from the dead, it is imperative that sinners come to know Christ, or else....

That's a denial of the Great Commission as a command, and is in fact doctrinal -- a direct command from our Savior and Lord. That is, in fact, an unbiblical perspective on your part.

I do not believe that what you call the Great Commission was given to the church, nor was it for the purpose of saving souls from hell and the lake of fire, you believe what regarding this ?

I believe you can surmise that from my previous statement.

And by the way, Amos 3:3 is about God and Israel unable to walk together because Israel has walked contrary to God's Word (doctrine, teaching, instruction, oracle, whatever you want to call it).

FYI, Amos was a prophet to the Northern kingdom of Israel, a nation which many erroneously refer to as "The Lost Tribes" of Israel. They were "lost" but not in the sense that no one can locate them. It is nothing more than a condemnation for unbelief, one that is rectified by believing in Christ as Savior, which is the same belief Abram expressed in the desert under the stars.

You wish to call our differences "doctrinal." Nothing could be further from the truth. But I still love and respect you as a brother in Christ and would worship with you on your terms any time.

 

[Hermeneut7]

I've read with interest all the comments made since I posted the OP. I admit I'm an older guy and quite cranky. :smilewinkgrin: But I sincerely worry about the state of the 'churches' today. I chose my signature verses because I see something very wrong if there truly was "the faith once for all delivered", and today look at all the various, and crazy beliefs and worships styles, all claiming to be the faith of Jesus Christ. It is no wonder so many scoff and laugh at today's version of the church. If we believe the church went off track through the earlier centuries, and at the Protestant Reformation and the years thereafter it was brought back to biblical standards, why have we slid back into what was happening before the Reformation?

God told Israel in Deut. 12:29-32 to NOT look at the religions around them and copy them. They were instructed to observe worship exactly as he told them and they were NOT permitted to add to it or take away from it. Moses told Israel that there was a prophet coming, (Jesus), and when He comes we are to listen to Him. Recorded in Matt.28 Jesus instructed: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" and Paul reminds us in 1 Cor. 4:6 we are NOT to go beyond what is written for us, obviously for us, written in the New Covenant. This is known as the "regulative principle of worship". It was not only the old Baptists shunning musical instruments, as the Primitive still do, it was Methodists and Presbyterians as well not permitting instruments into the worship. How can we claim to be holding the "faith once for all delivered" when we vary so much from the 17th and 18th century Baptists? More importantly, how can we claim it if we do not have New Covenant command and instruction for our worship.

I mention musical instruments because that is the major uproar in the churches today. I personally know one evangelical church that was new, was growing, doing well. A converted rock musician joined the church and the Pastor decided to let him lead the singing and then it slid into rock style. The older saints objected. The Pastor preached a sermon and reprimanded them for being contentious over mere style that would appeal to the younger set. That church is no longer!

I again admit, I am very cranky. I battle in my mind as see Marxists taking over our country, the USA. I have to keep reminding myself, "God is in control". I view christendom and battle in my mind also; but must remind myself it is as God told Paul.."In just the same way at the present time a ‘remnant’ has come into being, chosen by the grace of God." (Rom 11:5, REB) I hasten to add, I consult the Methodist Adam Clarke's commentaries and gain value there. I have Wesley's Notes and check them. I disagree with them on the doctrine of general atonement and their idea of election based on foresight of faith, but I find much more agreement with them than I do with so many 'free willer' type evangelicals of today!

Thanks for letting me blow off steam! :BangHead:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It is no wonder so many scoff and laugh at today's version of the church.

So the world is laughing at us because we use musical instruments in our worship services? Really? Thanks for telling us. I would have never known otherwise.

Or could it possibly be because we live our lives pretty much as they do while condemning them for not laying aside their sin? Some of which is the same sin we allow into our homes, our lives, even our churches. That's not possible, huh? We judge them as though they are in the church. They aren't. They're sinners. They're doing exactly what sinners do. And we bad-mouth, berate, ever curse them! If you put a sandbox in the yard, you'd better put a cover on it, because cats will do what cats do, and you can't blame them for it. Same with the world. It's lost. It sins. Condemnation is unfruitful. Love, on the other hand, overcomes a great deal.

1 John 3, NASB
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. ​

God told Israel in Deut. 12:29-32 to NOT look at the religions around them and copy them. They were instructed to observe worship exactly as he told them and they were NOT permitted to add to it or take away from it.

This leads up to pure legalistic misguided dogma that results in staid, unhappy, white-knuckle Christianity -- much like "white-knuckle sobriety" that relies on self -- that doggedly clings to its power even after being discredited as misguided and unbiblical. Fortunately it hangs on in ever lesser and fewer venues. It can't die off quickly enough, in my opinion.

Sometime you should ask my wife what fortitude it took in escaping such a church.

 

[Hermeneut7]

So the world is laughing at us because we use musical instruments in our worship services? Really? Thanks for telling us. I would have never known otherwise.

Or could it possibly be because we live our lives pretty much as they do while condemning them for not laying aside their sin? Some of which is the same sin we allow into our homes, our lives, even our churches. That's not possible, huh? We judge them as though they are in the church. They aren't. They're sinners. They're doing exactly what sinners do. And we bad-mouth, berate, ever curse them! If you put a sandbox in the yard, you'd better put a cover on it, because cats will do what cats do, and you can't blame them for it. Same with the world. It's lost. It sins. Condemnation is unfruitful. Love, on the other hand, overcomes a great deal.

1 John 3, NASB
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. ​

This leads up to pure legalistic misguided dogma that results in staid, unhappy, white-knuckle Christianity -- much like "white-knuckle sobriety" that relies on self -- that doggedly clings to its power even after being discredited as misguided and unbiblical. Fortunately it hangs on in ever lesser and fewer venues. It can't die off quickly enough, in my opinion.

Sometime you should ask my wife what fortitude it took in escaping such a church.

I used the musical instruments as an example of ignoring the commands of Christ in the New Covenant. I did not realize that obeying and striving to follow the commands of Christ was legalism! As to the world laughing at today's churches and preachers, I see the world mocking more about the uproar over the admittedly perverse idea of gay marriage, while having nationally known preachers and evangelists divorcing, being caught in sexual misconduct, etc. Remember, some of these preachers are SBC types who condemn homosexual conduct from the pulpit then get rounded up in sting operations at night trying to pick up males. Then you have churches appealing for funds to spread the gospel as the pastor drives a Bentley or flies off in a private jet. False doctrine/belief brings about false/sinful conduct and worship observance is also doctrine/belief! "Keep Christ in Christmas!" Where in Scripture is there any such command for that observance? Tell all those emotional, tear jerking stories to try to pull someone down the aisle in some concocted conversion experience, foreign to the instructions of the New Covenant. I've heard all my life about the errors of a liturgy in the Lutheran, Anglican and Orthodox churches, but the modern Baptist churches have invented so many rites and ceremonies of their own!

 

[Yeshua1]

Without getting into that debate, as it is off topic, all fundamental articles of faith must be drawn from the Scriptures. The fundamentals are clear in Scripture. Everything essential to saving faith is fundamental. Every doctrine we are forbidden to deny is fundamental. The fundamental doctrines are all summed up in the person and work of Christ.

The essentials of the Christian faith aere agreed upon by ALL who have been saved, and so we are all in the real Church of Christ, his Body, its just that as family memebers usually do, we tend to major on the monors at times!

We put personal convictions/preferences on same par as doctrines!

 

[Hermeneut7]

Without getting into that debate, as it is off topic, all fundamental articles of faith must be drawn from the Scriptures. The fundamentals are clear in Scripture. Everything essential to saving faith is fundamental. Every doctrine we are forbidden to deny is fundamental. The fundamental doctrines are all summed up in the person and work of Christ.

The essentials of the Christian faith aere agreed upon by ALL who have been saved, and so we are all in the real Church of Christ, his Body, its just that as family memebers usually do, we tend to major on the monors at times!

We put personal convictions/preferences on same par as doctrines!

Can anyone point me to the Scripture that tells us what commands of Christ are considered a "fundamental" article so I know what words of Christ I can ignore and do my own way? Are there verses that are superfluous for the believer in the New Covenant? Don't quote theology to me, give me where it is written for me in the New Covenant. I am not being flippant, I do need to see if I must refine my belief system based on Scripture being brought to my attention. I need to know what commands given to us in the New Covenant are major and which are minor so I can place those minor ones out of my mind so I can do as I wish on those. I surely do not wish to be white-knuckled in this gospel age for white knuckles are NOT good news.

 

[Yeshua1]

Can anyone point me to the Scripture that tells us what commands of Christ are considered a "fundamental" article so I know what words of Christ I can ignore and do my own way? Are there verses that are superfluous for the believer in the New Covenant? Don't quote theology to me, give me where it is written for me in the New Covenant. I am not being flippant, I do need to see if I must refine my belief system based on Scripture being brought to my attention. I need to know what commands given to us in the New Covenant are major and which are minor so I can place those minor ones out of my mind so I can do as I wish on those. I surely do not wish to be white-knuckled in this gospel age for white knuckles are NOT good news.

Just walk in the filling of the Holy Spirit, know what the Lord commands us to do, and have Him show you what are doctrines that AA of us need to agree on, and what are convictions/preferences!

 

[pinoybaptist]

Without getting into that debate, as it is off topic, all fundamental articles of faith must be drawn from the Scriptures. The fundamentals are clear in Scripture. Everything essential to saving faith is fundamental. Every doctrine we are forbidden to deny is fundamental. The fundamental doctrines are all summed up in the person and work of Christ.

That said, we both believe Christ died for us. By those standards, what else is necessary? I do not have to believe as you believe to worship with you. In fact, I worship with many who believe as you do. They certainly aren't a majority in any SBC church I know of, but nonetheless, they are there. If you would refuse to worship with me based on my denial of extreme Calvinistic/Reformed teaching, you would be very narrow minded and even somewhat arrogant.That isn't a doctrinal position, as it is obvious instruments were used in ancient worship, and it is apparent that songs of praise were sung in the First Century church,and whether one were to accept it or not, it is very likely musical instruments were used in those services as well. The Bible does not speak against musical instruments being used in any form of worship of the One True God, and it cannot be said that the lack of evidence of their use in the First Century church is indicative of a "change of heart and practice" by God regarding instruments. So no, you wouldn't be comfortable in my church, but to blame it on "doctrine" is absurd.No. Simple preference. Again, there is no "doctrine" upon which to base that belief. The Bible is silent about it, so it is impossible to say it is forbidden just as it is impossible to say it is endorsed. It is a matter of preference and practice. Nothing more.That's a denial of the Great Commission as a command, and is in fact doctrinal -- a direct command from our Savior and Lord. That is, in fact, an unbiblical perspective on your part.I believe you can surmise that from my previous statement.FYI, Amos was a prophet to the Northern kingdom of Israel, a nation which many erroneously refer to as "The Lost Tribes" of Israel. They were "lost" but not in the sense that no one can locate them. It is nothing more than a condemnation for unbelief, one that is rectified by believing in Christ as Savior, which is the same belief Abram expressed in the desert under the stars.

You wish to call our differences "doctrinal." Nothing could be further from the truth. But I still love and respect you as a brother in Christ and would worship with you on your terms any time.

To make this very short, I will go to church and worship only with Primitive Baptists because what is spoken in the pulpit is agreed to by both the speaker, myself, and the congregation.
I am not ecumenical, or inter-faith, which seems to be today's operative word.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

We put personal convictions/preferences on same par as doctrines!

Yes we do. Doing so is to commit a grave error, if not outright sin.

I am not ecumenical, or inter-faith, which seems to be today's operative word.

Neither am I, which is why I would worship with you in your church. Which leaves two questions:

Do you actually understand those terms?

If so, what could possibly lead you to apply them across denominational lines to me, a Southern Baptist?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Sorry. Double post.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sorry. Double post.

Well just as long as you are sorry. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Well just as long as you are sorry. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm sure there are many who are very prepared to tell me just how sorry I am. :laugh:

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm sure there are many who are very prepared to tell me just how sorry I am. :laugh:

Ok I will start.....


You are so sorry they have to tie a steak around your neck just to get the dog to play with you.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Neither am I, which is why I would worship with you in your church. Which leaves two questions:

Do you actually understand those terms?

Yes, I do.

If so, what could possibly lead you to apply them across denominational lines to me, a Southern Baptist?

Because I don't know what you believe. You say you believe in Christ, fine, so do Roman Catholics, and Mormons, and Seventh Day Adventists.
You say you believe the gospel, good.
Well, so do the same groups I mentioned.
But, then, this is also where you, a SBC member, and I, a Primitive Baptist differ.
You probably hold that it is necessary for a sinner to hear the gospel, obey it, believe it, in order to be saved, and when you say saved, you most likely, as the majority of those who call themselves Christians, mean the salvation that Christ wrought at the cross, that He shed His blood for, which compasses redemption, atonement, and adoption.
Primitive Baptists do not hold to such a doctrine.
We believe the gospel is important in God's economy, yes, but belief in and obedience to the gospel has NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE'S ETERNAL SALVATION/REDEMPTION.

Therefore, if YOU were worshipping with us and it so happened the preacher spoke on the role of the gospel in the sinner's life, you would feel uncomfortable, and in your spirit, disagree, and would come out of our church muttering under your breath that you are never going back there, and perhaps in the back of your mind calling us heretics, as many on this board have already either done directly or in an insinuating manner.

You also likely hold that all must hear the gospel or else perish.
We do not believe all the elect will hear the gospel, in fact, we do not believe all the elect belong to Christendom at all.
So again, I go back to Amos' statement: How can two walk together except they be agreed ?

Then again, as evidenced on this board, you non-Primitives are willing to lay aside Scriptural principles and teachings as long as the others claim to worship the same Christ you do.
Be my guest.

I will not sacrifice truth and principle for anything.
How can I, for example, say, I'm willing to worship beside somebody who questions the impeccability of Christ ?
That is anti-Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

To make this very short, I will go to church and worship only with Primitive Baptists because what is spoken in the pulpit is agreed to by both the speaker, myself, and the congregation.
I am not ecumenical, or inter-faith, which seems to be today's operative word.

Do you mean that you cannot have fellowship with Christians who have been saved the exact same way that you have been?

That you see un ity only working if we all were to agree 100% on not just essential doctrines, but also all secondary and have all same preferences and convictions?

If so, then you have a peculiar view on what the real Church of Christ is!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, I do.



Because I don't know what you believe. You say you believe in Christ, fine, so do Roman Catholics, and Mormons, and Seventh Day Adventists.
You say you believe the gospel, good.
Well, so do the same groups I mentioned.
But, then, this is also where you, a SBC member, and I, a Primitive Baptist differ.
You probably hold that it is necessary for a sinner to hear the gospel, obey it, believe it, in order to be saved, and when you say saved, you most likely, as the majority of those who call themselves Christians, mean the salvation that Christ wrought at the cross, that He shed His blood for, which compasses redemption, atonement, and adoption.
Primitive Baptists do not hold to such a doctrine.
We believe the gospel is important in God's economy, yes, but belief in and obedience to the gospel has NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE'S ETERNAL SALVATION/REDEMPTION.

Therefore, if YOU were worshipping with us and it so happened the preacher spoke on the role of the gospel in the sinner's life, you would feel uncomfortable, and in your spirit, disagree, and would come out of our church muttering under your breath that you are never going back there, and perhaps in the back of your mind calling us heretics, as many on this board have already either done directly or in an insinuating manner.

You also likely hold that all must hear the gospel or else perish.
We do not believe all the elect will hear the gospel, in fact, we do not believe all the elect belong to Christendom at all.
So again, I go back to Amos' statement: How can two walk together except they be agreed ?

Then again, as evidenced on this board, you non-Primitives are willing to lay aside Scriptural principles and teachings as long as the others claim to worship the same Christ you do.
Be my guest.

I will not sacrifice truth and principle for anything.
How can I, for example, say, I'm willing to worship beside somebody who questions the impeccability of Christ ?
That is anti-Christ.

Based upon all of those stated doctrines, then not even the Jesus of the Bible, nor His Apostles would fell welcomed in your assembly!

Again, you have to see that the Gospel and the Cross brings the unity into the Body, as the Holy Spirit gives us it!

And if your church feels no need to fulfill the Great Commission, than how can you stand in judgement on those of us who are in the Will of God doing that in our churches?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Based upon all of those stated doctrines, then not even the Jesus of the Bible, nor His Apostles would fell welcomed in your assembly!

Again, you have to see that the Gospel and the Cross brings the unity into the Body, as the Holy Spirit gives us it!

And if your church feels no need to fulfill the Great Commission, than how can you stand in judgement on those of us who are in the Will of God doing that in our churches?

See what I'm saying? There you are implying our doctrines are so heretical that the Savior Himself will feel excluded ! The Body of Christ ? Which body is that. The SBC ? The IFB ? The BBF ? The PB's ? All "Christian" churches ? I hold to a visible local church. Period. As for judging your doing the "Great Commission" from where I stand you all are the ones judging what we believe about it by tagging us hyper this or that.

 

[evenifigoalone]

So long as the church has the most important beliefs to heart (I'd consider this the five fundamentals at the very least), good teaching, opportunities to learn and discuss as a group (a Bible study class), and opportunities to serve and carry out the great commission, I'm pretty well on board.
I attend a baptist church now, but I'd be comfortable at a nondenominational church as well. Possibly a methodist one as well, though not entirely sure.

I don't care about the worship style or instruments. Old school, modern, mixture of both, it's not a big deal nor much of a determining factor.
I do wish worship at my church was a bit more lively and real, as that seems more genuine. What I mean by this is like...other places I've been/attend (I attend a weekly Bible study outside of my church), I've seen people cry (as I myself have), lift hands (which is Biblical, BTW, mentioned in the Psalms), and seem actually affected by the words they were singing. But it's not that important, and I do love my church.

As a smaller priority, I would be (and have been) turned off by a church preaching legalism, especially if that's the bulk of their teachings. But they don't give it undue emphasis, then that may be a different story.

 

[HAMel]

I prefer a church that preaches Jesus first..., everything else second. Course, being human I do have a problem with that on occasion as the flesh often gets in the way.

Otherwise, a church that is absent gossip, back biting and all that political rhetoric. Where people don't fight over the color of the carpet; or the wattage of the bulbs in the overhead lighting. No in-fighting over who's going to administer the Sunday School Program. A Choir Director for whom realizes that he's not God's gift to music. A church where a business meeting doesn't break out in a hockey game. Where folks don't come up to others at a meal and ask why they always appear to be first in line to eat. A place where the Pastor does not request he be introduced as, The Most Respectable Doctor of Theology, The Honorable Pastor and Director of The South Side Self-righteous, Holier Than Thou Baptist Church.

You know..., a place where visitors are welcome. A place where folks linger around after church vise rushing to exit the premises causing a traffic jam in the parking lot and especially a church where folks turn off those infernal cell phones during service.

I know, I know..., too much coffee so early in the morning.