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What did Historic Baptists believe?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, May 12, 2005.

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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    This is clearly not true James. The universal church has solid biblical support.

    You are right that this is about "faith and practice." It is also about theology and what Scripture says. Let's not rewrite that.
     
    #21 Pastor Larry, May 13, 2005
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    In my not entirely humble opinion, the "Universal Church" has no scriptural support at all but is based on a failure to discern the difference between the church and the kingdom/family of God.

    The word "church" (or churches) is used 114 times in the NT and of those 99 are unequivocally referring to a local assembly. Of the remaining 15 times the word is used it is a generic reference to no church in particular, all churches in general.

    Although I don't believe the mistaken idea of a "universal, invisible church" is nearly as dangerous as some would have us believe, I do believe that words are important. When we become sloppy in our use of words we become sloppy in our teaching and preaching. Every man who aspires to be a theologian must first become a philologian. The Message we deliver is a Message couched in words. We should learn to use those words properly.

    In strictly biblical terms a "church" is an "organized assembly of baptized believers." When we deviate from that biblical standard we get into the swamp of verbal imprecision.

    I have no doubt that all believers are my brothers/sisters is Christ, that all are "in Christ" and we are all seated together with Him in the Heavenlies.

    Initially even Luther, seeing the overt wickedness of the Roman Catholic Church, was quite happy to consider a church a true company of the faithful, a spiritual communion. He said, "In matters of faith we have to do with a free act, one to which no one can be coerced nor drowned with water; only the Word of God can overcome it . . . the secular authorities should keep their hands off . . . force must not be used in this area of life." This seems to establish that Luther believed the church was local and visible and not subject to statism.

    However, he later changed his position when, in his Address to the German Nobility he said, " . . some contend that remnant and laid instead the basis for a church allied and subservient to the state." Luther realized there was now more than one "Church" and there was, in fact, a confessional rivalry between the RCC, the "church" of Luther (later this grew to include the "church" of Calvin and the "church" of Henry VIII). Luther then invented the concept of a "territorial Church." (Diet of Speyer, 1526.)

    Finally, in the end, Luther came to the idea of a "universal, invisible church" and saw the local congregation as being merely a visible manifestation of the "invisible church."

    The church is universal (that is, it is everywhere) but there is no "universal church." In my travels I have noticed that wherever I go I find automobiles. The automobile is universal, but that does not imply the existence of a "universal automobile."
     
    #22 TCassidy, May 14, 2005
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    TCassidy

    1. What does Church mean in the following Scripture?

    Acts 2:47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Matthew 16:16-18
    16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[/i]

    Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Colossians 1:18, 24
    18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

    2. What was the writer talking about in the following Scripture?

    Ephesians 2:16-22
    16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Luke 12:32
    32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    1 Peter 2:9, KJV
    9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
     
    #23 OldRegular, May 14, 2005
  4. TCassidy

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    The only church in existence at that time, the church at Jerusalem.
    Generic meaning. No church in particular, all churches in general.
    The first reference, the general assembly, refers to the saved who were outside the church, and the second refers to the saved who were churched who are now gathered together in heaven as one church, assembled.
    Generic meaning. No church in particular, all churches in general.
    Generic meaning. No church in particular, all churches in general.
    He is talking about the local church which now admits both Jews and Gentiles in one body.
    Yes, "fitly framed together" not scattered all over the world. Jews, Gentiles, everybody all part of the same group now, not a separate church for Jews and a separate church for Gentiles.
    I am not sure what you point is in the last two. No church mentioned in either of them except by eisogesis.
     
    #24 TCassidy, May 14, 2005
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Not to delve too deeply, but simply to point out that when you say "churches in general" you seem forced to take the inspired singular and read it as a plural. Given your position, and mine, on inspiration, I would think that would be troubling to you ... It certainly is to me ... [​IMG]
     
    #25 Pastor Larry, May 14, 2005
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, that is what a "generic" is. A singular used to include all others.
     
    #26 TCassidy, May 15, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Yes, that is what a "generic" is. A singular used to include all others. </font>[/QUOTE]A generic, is Any singular among other singulars.
     
    #27 Wes Outwest, May 15, 2005
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Question #1. originally posted by OldRegular:


    It is my impression that the membership of local Baptist churches vote people into the local body. God may or may not have been added them to His Church.

    Do you really believe that response? If Jesus Christ had been talking about multiple churches He would have said "churches". Do you completely ignore what Jesus Christ said in the following Scripture?

    John 17:20, 21?
    20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    Where in Scripture does it say that people are saved outside the Church? How can you put the church of the firstborn in heaven and leave the general assembly in limbo? It is obvious from use of the conjunction "and" that general assembly and church designate the same body. That sounds a little like dispensational doctrine of the so-called 7 years.

    Where have I seen that answer before? Your response reminds me of another poster on this Forum who proclaims that all Scripture which disproves his Arminian theology is written specifically about the Apostles.

    Where have I seen that answer before? Your response reminds me of another poster on this Forum who proclaims that all Scripture which disproves his Arminian theology is written specifically about the Apostles.


    Question #2. originally posted by OldRegular:
    Your response that Paul is talking about a local body of believers is completely refuted by the Scripture that follows:

    Ephesians 2:12-16
    12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Your response would be correct if you had used the word "Church" instead of "same group". I haven't mentioned a separate church for Jews and one for Gentiles. As I noted in Ephesians 2:12-16 above there is only one Church. The Southern Baptist Faith and Message says it well: "The New Testament also speaks of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation."

    Proper exegesis of the above passages shows that Jesus Christ and Peter are talking about the Church. You apparently disagree. That was the original question "What was the writer talking about in the following Scripture?" You have dodged the question by accusing me of eisegesis.
     
    #28 OldRegular, May 15, 2005
  9. TCassidy

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    Yes, as I am not in the habit of lying, but thank you for bringing my character into the discussion.
    Yes, that is what a generic does. "I believe the horse is the most beautiful of all the animals." That is how the generic works. A singular is used to indicate all. "I believe the Lincoln is the finest luxury car made in America."
    No, I don't ignore Jesus, but thank you for bring my spiritual condition into the discussion.
    I am not Roman Catholic so I don't believe it is church membership that saves. Christ, and Christ alone, saves.
    I didn't. It is obvious they are both in heaven.
    Sorry, but that is an example of eisogesis. Notice the Greek words, "panhgurie" and "ekklhsia." Very distinct words in the Greek city state system, and, of course, not the same thing. One is the "general assembly" of all the people and the other is the specific assembly of only the people of a specific city state. See Acts 19.

    Note also that "and" does not mean the two are the same. It simply means that both are in heaven, as are the rest. Notice that the same conjunction includes "angels," "God," and "spirits of just ones made perfect." Surely you are not suggesting all those are the same thing?

    I have no idea what you are talking about but it is off topic. I never mentioned anything about 7 years or dispensationalism. If you want to discuss those issues start another thread.
    See above where you questioned by honesty.

    Another personal attack, this time an attempt to make me look bad via the logical fallacy of "guilt by association."

    See above where you questioned my honesty and tried to lump me with Arminians the first time.
    No, that verse supports my position. We are all together in one spiritual body and thus should also be together in one church body.

    My response was correct regardless of your failure to understand it.
    I didn't say you did. In fact, I didn't even know we were talking about you. I thought we were talking about the bible. When you change the subject you will have to let me know.
    Sorry, but there are many, many, many churches. If there were only one church we would have to assume God made an error when He inspired the word "churches" 36 times in the New Testament.

    That is the main reason I am not a Southern Baptist. I don't let a denominational hierarchy dictate what I believe.
    Peter is talking about the Family of God. See Ephesians 3:14-15.

    Yes, I often disagree with eisogesis.
    I didn't dodge anything. Peter is not talking about a "universal, invisible, mystical church." He is talking about the redeemed, the Family of God.
     
    #29 TCassidy, May 15, 2005
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    TCassidy

    At least you made an attempt to answer the second time around.

    You stated: "Generic meaning. No church in particular, all churches in general." That is a non answer and the reason I asked "Do you really believe that response?" I intended no personal attack regardless of what you might think.

    I did not call you Arminian, I simply compared your non answers to those of another poster who happens to be Arminian.

    The Family of God is the Church. Scripture tells us we are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

    I never stated that we are saved by the Church [the body of all believers] but those who are saved become members of that body, the universal Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. TC, I am not Roman Catholic either.

    If my memory is correct it was you who started throwing insults around talking about eisegesis. It is one thing to disagree about the interpretation of Scripture, it is an insult to accuse someone of eisegesis.

    Obviously you and I disagree about the nature of the Church so further discussion would be pointless. :D [​IMG]
     
    #30 OldRegular, May 15, 2005
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    B. H. Carroll, founder of the Southwestern Baptist Seminary, did not like the idea of universal Church so he used the term Glory Church [An Interpretation of the English Bible], which he believed would assemble in Heaven [as Pastor Larry stated]. I believe it will be assembled on the new earth concurrent with the return of Jesus Christ.

    My belief in what some would call the "universal Church" is not like that of the Roman Catholics. I simply believe that when Jesus Christ said he would build His Church he meant one body which included "all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation." The Apostles Paul and John refer to that body as the "Bride of Jesus Christ".

    May I say that those who disagree are also entitled to be wrong! :D
     
    #31 OldRegular, May 15, 2005
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