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What did Jesus do? A Biblical case for using the Law in evangelism
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
What law is written on their hearts?
DHK,
Actually as we look at it, you are once again in complete error,lol...and yet look to lecture us and inflict error upon us.
YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MISSED THIS;
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/sabbath-rest/
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Actually as we look at it, you are once again in complete error,lol...and yet look to lecture us and inflict error upon us.
YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MISSED THIS;
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/sabbath-rest/
JonC
I have tried to re-create the post I did yesterday, but somehow did not post, and then was lost,lol
I am glad to hear that you were not implying that the commandments were not suggestions. Now we can look at where we can agree, and where we differ.
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No....not to imply but to teach it and can be searched out by studying out the Image-bearer doctrine as I said in the PM to you.
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Paul does this;
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
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I did not miss it at all. You in your posts jump back and forth and conflate the issues.
I am speaking of the Decalogue before Israel was a nation....you seem to tie in the ceremonial and judicial laws.
The very law is twisted and perverted by fallen man however , due to the noetic effects of sin. Fallen men can only show some of the works of the law.
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Before the world was...God's Covenant of Redemption was in place.
In fact it anticpates man as a law breaker and covenant breaker.
I have tried to re-create the post I did yesterday, but somehow did not post, and then was lost,lol
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I am glad to hear that you were not implying that the commandments were not suggestions. Now we can look at where we can agree, and where we differ.
ok
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No...men are under the Decalogue period.......not as reflected, but actual.
Agreed
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No....that is not the question at all
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They existed since creation as far as man is concerned
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No....not to imply but to teach it and can be searched out by studying out the Image-bearer doctrine as I said in the PM to you.
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You have not stated my view yet, so to defend what you are speaking about is an "unintentional" strawman.
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Paul does this;
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[red flag 7]
I did not miss it at all. You in your posts jump back and forth and conflate the issues.
I am speaking of the Decalogue before Israel was a nation....you seem to tie in the ceremonial and judicial laws.
That is what I meant in the PM yesterday.
The very law is twisted and perverted by fallen man however , due to the noetic effects of sin. Fallen men can only show some of the works of the law.
[red flag 8]
Where did I say anything that leads you to believe that I do not think God deals with men in terms of Covenant?
Before the world was...God's Covenant of Redemption was in place.
In fact it anticpates man as a law breaker and covenant breaker.
InTheLight,
No...it is question answering to which you have no biblical response but look to worm out of it alleging a debate fallacy...
If you do not grasp this...you are not speaking of the biblical gospel.
From what you have posted it looks as if you are suggesting Joel osteens best life now kind of approach......no need to bring up sin, law breaking, repentance....no instead-
you suggest Jesus did not use law with the Samaritan woman, but offered her a wonderful life instead????
No...it is question answering to which you have no biblical response but look to worm out of it alleging a debate fallacy...
Maybe because the very basis of the Gospel itself is based on Law Keeping.
If you do not grasp this...you are not speaking of the biblical gospel.
From what you have posted it looks as if you are suggesting Joel osteens best life now kind of approach......no need to bring up sin, law breaking, repentance....no instead-
you suggest Jesus did not use law with the Samaritan woman, but offered her a wonderful life instead????
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lets see what Paul says compared to your statement;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
DHK,
Every prophet told them they needed to repent;
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Every prophet told them they needed to repent;
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
opps....here it is again;
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Nowhere, brother, for the very good reason that there is no example whatsoever of anyone in the NT coming to a town and telling the unsaved, "Jesus loves you soooooo much! Now won't you love Him back? The message I picked up from that sort of witness as a young man was that God was a bit of a loser and that I ought to feel sorry for Him. It was a bit like being told that the ugliest girl in the class has a crush on you.
I am finding that "the moral law" means different things to different people. How do you define it?
It is your quote that misses the mark. Even the word "sabbatisimos means "rest."
I would urge you to do a study on what it means "to keep the Sabbath." You do not keep the Sabbath. You do not go to church on Saturday or worship corporately on Saturday. No doubt you have no idea what it is to keep the Sabbath.
If you kept the Sabbath you would not use electricity, natural gas, drive your car, etc. Your day would start from just before sundown on Friday and would end about the same time on Saturday evening.
Considering these things you do not honor or keep the Sabbath Day, do you?
That doesn't answer my question. But if you mean the "Sabbath Day" is included in the Decalogue, and man must keep it, why don't you keep it? Read my response to Icon. There isn't an individual on this board that keeps the Sabbath Day. Therefore no one keeps the Ten Commandments. The totality of the Decalogue is not the "moral law."
You are off topic. I went through the entire sermon with you. I explained each and every verse. Paul did not quote any of these verses, so why do you. You are off topic, and these scriptures are all red herrings. Paul did not quote the entire 39 books of the OT but you seem at liberty to use them. Use the scripture that Paul used in the sermon that he preached in Acts 13.
Your answer holds no weight and has no bearing on Paul's message. He did not refer to the Law of God.
Brother, you say that the Ten Commandments are the moral law, minus the 4th Commandment (so it seems to me you mean the Nine Commandments). What gives us the authority to separate the 4th from the rest, or to take as principle the 4th, if these themselves are God's moral law?
(I do agree, BTW, that the purpose of the Law towards men's obedience was to point out the sinfulness if man, not to be a way of earning salvation).
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The "Law" is never referred to as "The Nine". Yet we know that that the Gentile is not obligated to keep the Sabbath as the Jew is. That creates a problem for those adhering to a strict definition of the "Law," as some also would refer to it as including all 613 commands that the Jews were obligated to keep. But the Gentiles were never under those either.
Either way "the moral law" could never include the Sabbath or those laws related only to the Jews. A missionary to a tribe in Africa could tell you that the unreached people there know automatically it is wrong to murder and lie, but they would not have a clue that one day is supposed to be more holy than another day. That is not "moral."
Yes, I tend to agree with you (minus the Sabbath). But when defined that way one will run into further opposition.
Everything is funny to you Icon. You laugh at all these posts concerning the Sabbath. That is sad. You don't care about the Word of God? Is that right?
The law was given to the nation of Israel and to her generations forever, not Israel. Take a look:
Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
--What tribe did you say you belonged to Icon?
Israel is in a particular geographical location in this world where it is possible that the conditions for the Sabbath to be kept. Most of us in North America cannot keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is from sundown to sundown.
You are a trucker. I invite you to come to where I live, where the temperatures drop below minus 40. In fact last night they got that cold in the suburbs of the city. Then I would invite you to take a one-day journey straight north of here to one of the many small towns. Here is what you would find:
http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/when-does-the-bible-sabbath-begin-and-end.html
It is a place where it is impossible to keep the Sabbath. For a good part of the year there is no sunrise, and in a good part of the year there is no sundown. It is "the land of the midnight sun."
The Sabbath was meant for the Jew and only the Jew.
I have been on this board, mostly on the "Other Christian Denom." Forum, for the last 15 years debating SDA's among others. During that time I have learned more about the Sabbath and its precepts than you probably have in your lifetime. No one here keeps the Sabbath. No SDA keeps the Sabbath. They are just deceiving themselves. They cannot keep the Sabbath. If they live in North America, they cannot do it (unless you are in a state where you have summer-like conditions all year around and are willing to sacrifice many, many, modern conveniences).
I look upon the "law" (the Decalogue) as imprinted upon the hearts of every person. Every social grouping has as basic to their "law" items that are aligned in some manner with that ten basic items. Be it a worship and respect for their god, or the day of worship which we might consider as a "Sabbath."
I also do not look upon the Decalogue as optional. I always have tried to keep even a day of rest for every six I work. Sometimes it is five, sometimes eight, we all have emergency and interruptions to the living. But at least a single day needs to be devoted to worship. For pastors, sometimes, I have suggested Thursday. It seems to be the least busy as far as interruptions, and there needs to be considerable time spent in the spirit with the Lord before presenting in work for the Lord. It isn't that one keeps the "Sabbath" on Saturday, but that one keeps a Sabbath. Some day that that person may call, "the Lord's day."
That stated, (imo) there is little use to harping upon the "law" when declaring the gospel. That doesn't mean that there is no use for the law, nor point out the offense of the law in one part offends all parts.
In my own work, often one who is being witnessed to readily admits that they are a breaker of the law, and readily admits that they live "in sin" in some area or another. Often making excuse, or attempting to point out my own sinfulness. I don't avoid such accusation, but use it to point to the redeemer's work of mercy and grace.
There are also times when I don't have to use or even mention the "law" but merely remind the person that sin brings rebuke, both physical, emotional, and spiritual.
I also do not look upon the Decalogue as optional. I always have tried to keep even a day of rest for every six I work. Sometimes it is five, sometimes eight, we all have emergency and interruptions to the living. But at least a single day needs to be devoted to worship. For pastors, sometimes, I have suggested Thursday. It seems to be the least busy as far as interruptions, and there needs to be considerable time spent in the spirit with the Lord before presenting in work for the Lord. It isn't that one keeps the "Sabbath" on Saturday, but that one keeps a Sabbath. Some day that that person may call, "the Lord's day."
That stated, (imo) there is little use to harping upon the "law" when declaring the gospel. That doesn't mean that there is no use for the law, nor point out the offense of the law in one part offends all parts.
In my own work, often one who is being witnessed to readily admits that they are a breaker of the law, and readily admits that they live "in sin" in some area or another. Often making excuse, or attempting to point out my own sinfulness. I don't avoid such accusation, but use it to point to the redeemer's work of mercy and grace.
There are also times when I don't have to use or even mention the "law" but merely remind the person that sin brings rebuke, both physical, emotional, and spiritual.