What did Jesus do? A Biblical case for using the Law in evangelism

[SovereignGrace]

I have heard that many times also, and it is false. We cannot "get people lost," only the Holy Spirit can do that.

What I meant is that we expose people to their unrighteousness and the Spirit convicts them via the word of God we speak. Here's an example. My wife loves to watch 'Real Housewives of Orange County'. The lead woman, Vicki Gunvalson, has emphatically said many times she was going to heaven when she dies. Yet she curses like a sailor, has been divorced three times, was shacked up with her boyfriend(she cheated on her third husband with this guy) having out of wedlock intercourse with him. And she thinks she's going to heaven. She doesn't consider herself lost. Unless someone exposes these wicked deeds of her unti her via the bible, she will not think she's lost. You expose people's sin to them via the Law. You show them their sinfulness by showing them they sinned against a thrice holy God. Sin is violating God's Law(s).

Paul was a Jew, and knew the Jewish law. Gentiles are heathen, yet know the law in their hearts. The Holy Spirit convicts them based on the law they already know, though occasionally the Christian quoting the Decalogue to them can be used by God--I have never denied that, but only that this is the "preferred method" of evangelism.

You preach the gospel, telling people that being outside of Christ, they're lost. They need reconciliation. You can preach the gospel and the Law without quoting the 10 ver batim. Many verses point to those 10 without being word for word. Paul.did that in Athens in Acts 17.

Once again, we do not expose people's vileness. That is the Holy Spirit's job. We cannot convict people of sin. It's not our job.

What I mean is He uses us to bring about this work of the Spirit. We are the instruments which the Spirit uses to bring conviction of sin.

Over and over I have been amazed at the tears of convicted people, knowing I did not do that, thinking, "Where did that come from?"

Here's the thing...how does any of us know these tears were from conviction? Here's what I mean. Back when Desert Swarm was in full force, I had a sister in Saudi Arabia in a field hospital in the middle of the action. Mom and dad were both lost at this time and went to church one Sunday, and I tagged along, also being lost. At the end of the service, a preacher was preaching and during the sermon(towards the end of it), he mentioned his son being there in Desert Swarm, and mom started crying. It wasn't conviction by the Spirit, but the thought of her daughter and my sister being in harm's way. Now, some may have seen her crying and pounced, trying to 'save' her. So, when we see tears, some times these aren't from conviction, in my opinion.

In that passage (I assume you mean Gal. 3:24), Paul was combating the heresy of Judaism, not teaching how to do evangelism.

I'm gonna hafta disagree with you here, Monsieur. I'll leave it there. Love you my Brother.

 

[John of Japan]

Then why are you in this debate if you have such a high view of the moral law?

Many reasons.

(1) Any debate about evangelism is good.
(2) To promote a theology of evangelism based on the Holy Spirit's work and not human attempts at convicting of sin.
(3) To promote a theology of the true contents of the Gospel.
(4) To point out that Gentiles have the Law written in their hearts and do not need it quoted to them.
(5) To show the Biblical mistake of saying that using the law is the "preferred method" of evangelism. The "preferred method is the one that actually gets done.
(6) Etc., etc.

 

[kyredneck]

(4) To point out that Gentiles have the Law written in their hearts

Yes, the regenerate ones do, as do regenerate Jews also. Those Gentiles in Ro 2:13-15 are described as doers of the law and justified.

 

[John of Japan]

And you have every right to do this. FYI...I do not take offense to the 'big red X', or even the 'dumb' ranks given to me. Sometimes I have disagreed with myself and even considered myself dumb @ times. I guess others are actually agreeing with me. Laugh Roflmao Cautious

And that's a pretty good answer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And that's a pretty good answer.

Now, are you give me a 'thumbs up' or pounding me over the head with your fist? I know it's a 'thumbs up', but looks like a fist, too...with a thumb outta place.

 

[John of Japan]

What I meant is that we expose people to their unrighteousness and the Spirit convicts them via the word of God we speak. Here's an example. My wife loves to watch 'Real Housewives of Orange County'. The lead woman, Vicki Gunvalson, has emphatically said many times she was going to heaven when she dies. Yet she curses like a sailor, has been divorced three times, was shacked up with her boyfriend(she cheated on her third husband with this guy) having out of wedlock intercourse with him. And she thinks she's going to heaven. She doesn't consider herself lost. Unless someone exposes these wicked deeds of her unti her via the bible, she will not think she's lost. You expose people's sin to them via the Law. You show them their sinfulness by showing them they sinned against a thrice holy God. Sin is violating God's Law(s).

I certainly agree with using Scripture about sin so that the Holy Spirit will use it to convict. (Never one time say "Real Housewives...probably never will. ) Once again, what I am disagreeing with on this thread is that somehow there is special power in quoting the Decalogue in evangelism (though the Word of God always has power). People have the law in their hearts. We don't have to quote it to them to see the Spirit convict them.

You preach the gospel, telling people that being outside of Christ, they're lost. They need reconciliation. You can preach the gospel and the Law without quoting the 10 ver batim. Many verses point to those 10 without being word for word. Paul.did that in Athens in Acts 17.

What I mean is He uses us to bring about this work of the Spirit. We are the instruments which the Spirit uses to bring conviction of sin.

Okay, very good. I agree. But then you are not agreeing with the OP and Evan. and the WOTM method.

Here's the thing...how does any of us know these tears were from conviction? Here's what I mean. Back when Desert Swarm was in full force, I had a sister in Saudi Arabia in a field hospital in the middle of the action. Mom and dad were both lost at this time and went to church one Sunday, and I tagged along, also being lost. At the end of the service, a preacher was preaching and during the sermon(towards the end of it), he mentioned his son being there in Desert Swarm, and mom started crying. It wasn't conviction by the Spirit, but the thought of her daughter and my sister being in harm's way. Now, some may have seen her crying and pounced, trying to 'save' her. So, when we see tears, some times these aren't from conviction, in my opinion.

In my experience it is usually pretty easy to tell if tears are from conviction of sin or not. The Holy Spirit gives discernment.

Just this morning we had our "testimony chapel," and one young freshman talked about witnessing to a big, scary guy after work for about 20 min. At one point he said, "I'm never going to ask Jesus to forgive my sins!" Another time in the conversation she said she would be praying for him, and he said, "No, don't do that, I'll read the whole tract if you just don't pray for me!" Now that is clear conviction of sins. By the end he had tears of conviction in his eyes.

I'm gonna hafta disagree with you here, Monsieur. I'll leave it there. Love you my Brother.

Alright, brother, have a great day.

 

[John of Japan]

Now, are you give me a 'thumbs up' or pounding me over the head with your fist? I know it's a 'thumbs up', but looks like a fist, too...with a thumb outta place.

Oh, no no no. Just a thumbs up! Thumbsup

 

[evangelist6589]

I want to point out a major misconception that JOJ and others have. This misconception can be corrected if people would read the book The Way of the Master cover to cover and look at all the footnotes. But the misconception is that the principle of Law to the Proud and grace for the humble is original with Comfort and this is false. Plenty of books prior to 1989 when Hells best Kept Secret was published taught this principle. So sad that so few will do their homework on this one.

 

[evangelist6589]

I certainly agree with using Scripture about sin so that the Holy Spirit will use it to convict. (Never one time say "Real Housewives...probably never will. ) Once again, what I am disagreeing with on this thread is that somehow there is special power in quoting the Decalogue in evangelism (though the Word of God always has power). People have the law in their hearts. We don't have to quote it to them to see the Spirit convict them.

Okay, very good. I agree. But then you are not agreeing with the OP and Evan. and the WOTM method.

In my experience it is usually pretty easy to tell if tears are from conviction of sin or not. The Holy Spirit gives discernment.

Just this morning we had our "testimony chapel," and one young freshman talked about witnessing to a big, scary guy after work for about 20 min. At one point he said, "I'm never going to ask Jesus to forgive my sins!" Another time in the conversation she said she would be praying for him, and he said, "No, don't do that, I'll read the whole tract if you just don't pray for me!" Now that is clear conviction of sins. By the end he had tears of conviction in his eyes.

Alright, brother, have a great day.

Not the way of the master method it's called the Biblical method of evangelism and by the way the 10 commandments and using them in evangelism is not original with Comfort.

 

[John of Japan]

I want to point out a major misconception that JOJ and others have. This misconception can be corrected if people would read the book The Way of the Master cover to cover and look at all the footnotes. But the misconception is that the principle of Law to the Proud and grace for the humble is original with Comfort and this is false. Plenty of books prior to 1989 when Hells best Kept Secret was published taught this principle. So sad that so few will do their homework on this one.

Please give some quotes from the books you mention to prove this.

 

[John of Japan]

Not the way of the master method it's called the Biblical method of evangelism and by the way the 10 commandments and using them in evangelism is not original with Comfort.

So for me to find out if your assertions are Biblical or not I should read a book about evangelism, is that it? In my life and ministry I have gone to the Bible directly, examining every single passage in the Scriptures (OT & NT) to develop my own positions on evangelism. I urge you to do the same.

I have made post after post directly from sources in the Bible on this thread (which you started so that you and I could discuss evangelism), and even though you said you would answer them you never did. Bottom line: I'm depending on the Bible for my view of evangelism, but you are depending on an uninspired book written by a man.

Case closed.

 

[evangelist6589]

So for me to find out if your assertions are Biblical or not I should read a book about evangelism, is that it? In my life and ministry I have gone to the Bible directly, examining every single passage in the Scriptures (OT & NT) to develop my own positions on evangelism. I urge you to do the same.

I have made post after post directly from sources in the Bible on this thread (which you started so that you and I could discuss evangelism), and even though you said you would answer them you never did. Bottom line: I'm depending on the Bible for my view of evangelism, but you are depending on an uninspired book written by a man.

Case closed.

Then why listen to you? You are a man and your posts are not inspired.

 

[DHK]

Then why listen to you? You are a man and your posts are not inspired.

Are you inspired?
Is Comfort inspired?
Is the WOTM inspired?

It is the Word of God that is inspired. If JoJ has given an answer from the Word of God that you are unable to refute then it really doesn't matter what Comfort or your other books say. They aren't inspired. Our authority is the Word of God, not Comfort.

 

[John of Japan]

Then why listen to you? You are a man and your posts are not inspired.

EXACTLY!!!!! Don't listen to me, don't read books about evangelism, read the Bible about it. That's what I've been saying all along!

 

[evangelist6589]

I have given enough scripture and no question Comfort has used enough scripture to persuade me. But as for you WOTM is simply what you do not want to hear so you reject the scripture that is used.

 

[evangelist6589]

EXACTLY!!!!! Don't listen to me, don't read books about evangelism, read the Bible about it. That's what I've been saying all along!

Then stop going to church and hearing sermons.

 

[John of Japan]

I have given enough scripture and no question Comfort has used enough scripture to persuade me. But as for you WOTM is simply what you do not want to hear so you reject the scripture that is used.

This is a wicked, false charge. You are disobeying the Ten Commandments you claim to love, specifically, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." You know good and well that I have not rejected any Scripture whatsoever, but only disagreed with your interpretation. I have been reading and loving the Bible ever since I was a little boy, over 55 years now. I love and cherish every single verse of the blessed and precious Word of God, and read it in two different languages every morning, often doing Bible translation work in a third language in the afternoon.

With this kind of disobedience of the Decalogue, you are in no position to advocate using it in evangelism until you repent of your wicked disobedience of it.

 

[evangelist6589]

This is a wicked, false charge. You are disobeying the Ten Commandments you claim to love, specifically, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." You know good and well that I have not rejected any Scripture whatsoever, but only disagreed with your interpretation. I have been reading and loving the Bible ever since I was a little boy, over 55 years now. I love and cherish every single verse of the blessed and precious Word of God, and read it in two different languages every morning, often doing Bible translation work in a third language in the afternoon.

With this kind of disobedience of the Decalogue, you are in no position to advocate using it in evangelism until you repent of your wicked disobedience of it.

Excuse me?????? It's my opinion on you and why you reject WOTM. You do not agree with the interpretation so the scriptures used you reject.

 

[John of Japan]

Excuse me?????? It's my opinion on you and why you reject WOTM. You do not agree with the interpretation so the scriptures used you reject.

Lean in close to the screen. Listen carefully. I want you to get this and get it good.

I do not reject Scripture, and you are breaking the Ten Commandments by bearing false witness when you say I do. That is wicked sin.

I absolutely dare you to show a single place on this thread where I have rejected Scripture. If you can't do that, then my statement stands. You are sinning.

Come on. Do you have the character and guts to back up your charge of Scripture rejection? This is an easy charge to prove. Simply give the post number on this thread where I rejected Scripture.

 

[evangelist6589]

Lean in close to the screen. Listen carefully. I want you to get this and get it good.

I do not reject Scripture, and you are breaking the Ten Commandments by bearing false witness when you say I do. That is wicked sin.

I absolutely dare you to show a single place on this thread where I have rejected Scripture. If you can't do that, then my statement stands. You are sinning.

Come on. Do you have the character and guts to back up your charge of Scripture rejection? This is an easy charge to prove. Simply give the post number on this thread where I rejected Scripture.

It's a simple misunderstanding JOJ so stop jumping the gun. You reject the WOTM interpretation of scripture which I should have said.