What did Jesus leave behind when He took on human form?

Yabba,

I don't think I was giving the impression that once Adam and Eve sinned, sin would cause God to become infected and disintegrate, or become instantly contaminated with leporasy or something like that. I had said that "God could not, in all of His Holiness commune with sinful man "in the same manner."

There was an indication that "separation" had begun to take place, but that the "separation" was not seen as "completed" until they were banished from the Garden when God "placed the cherubim, and the the flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." (3:24) Only through the sacrifice of Christ "hanging on a tree" are we symbolically entitled to enter the Garden of Eden - the New Jerusalem. We do not actually enter it until the New Heavens and the New Earth are cleansed with fire as in 2 Peter.

Now in the Garden of Eden, the fact that the separation that had begun to take place is seen in verse 8; "And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day,..."

To get an understanding of what that implies, go back to 1:2-4. Verse 2 says that "darkness was upon the face of the deep." Verses 3&4 says; "And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God said that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

Now, although this is an account of the creation, it is worth noting that God only calls the light which he Names "Day" as being good - He does not call the darkness that he names "Night" as being good.

But, God goes to Adam and Eve, "in the cool of the day" thus, indicating that it is neither day nor night - but evening time, when it is cool.

Now, Good Evening!

[ April 12, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

Act 9:3-6
(3) As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;

(4) and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

Jesus did not appear to Saul in the same manner God did on a one-on-one basis with Adam and Eve. Again, scripture says that God was "walking in the garden" and that they hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees." Once more, that communal one-on-one existence never happened again with sinful man after the expulsion from the Garden of Eden and scripture does not indicate that it will ever happen again until Revelation 21.

The "appearance" to Paul was a brief encounter and for a specific purpose - to anoint Paul and commission him to spreading the gospel through the Gentile world. Those "special revelations" were not a common occurrence either in the Old Testament nor in the New Testament.

So, my point still holds true - that Christ, in his glorified body, will remain there as he said;

"From now on the Son of Man shall sit at the right hand of the power of God." Luke 22:69

Once again, nowhere does it say that a glorified Christ will return to a cursed earth to dwell on earth for 1,000 years and commune with unregenerate man that is in rebellion against Him.

[ April 12, 2005, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

Paul33,

Perhaps it would be helpful if you told us what scritpture you use to base your presumption that God the Son has limited his attribute of omnipresence because to me, opmipresence is not the issue.

 

OldRegular,

Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Christ was "glorified" upon His death.

OldRegular, Don't you think that Paul would have mentioned it in the following verses if Christ, in His glorified body, did appear to unbelievers as He had done before the cross?

1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;
1Co 15:5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve.
1Co 15:6 Afterward He was seen by over five hundred brothers at once, of whom the greater part remain until this present day, but also some fell asleep.
1Co 15:7 Afterward He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all He was seen by me also, as one born out of time.

[ April 12, 2005, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

OldRegular,

Could you clarify what you think we disagree on because I don't see where we do.

My statement was; "With the A-Mill view, Christ does not, and cannot reside alonside sinful man in His now "glorified state."

I know you enough by your posts that it surprises me that you would disagree with this. I don't see where a glorified Christ will reside on a cursed earth for 1,000 years with unregenerate man as is the Pre-Mill view. It isn't that Christ can't because He can do anything He wants to do - it's just that to do so would be a contradiction of what scripture says will be the next and only event and also of what He has already done in the past.

 

OldRegular,

WHEW!

Now I can go to bed! It is late!

 

OldRegular,

Originally posted by OldRegular;

" His resurrection body had not received the Glory that He had before the incarnation until His ascension.
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Originally posted by Covenant;
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Christ was "glorified" upon His death.

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Originally posted by OldRegular;
"I can't agree that Jesus Christ was glorified until after His ascension, if by glorify you mean He received the Glory that He had with the Father before His incarnation. After that Glory was restored to Him no one, believer or unbeliever, would have been able to look upon His Glory and live."

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OldRegular,

I'm going to concede to you on this one and say that I think that we are both right. His work on earth was multi-tasked. He revealed the mind of God when the Logos became flesh, suffered for man, crucified and then died, arose from the dead, and ascended to the Father. John 17 speaks of that entire time on earth and that the conclusion of his work that he prays to be glorified in includes what is to come in the next few days.

I also agree completely with your use of 1 Timothy 6 but with one more added to it.

In John 17:9 Jesus, in praying to the Father, says this; "I am praying for [my disciples]; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou has given me, for they are thine;"

He goes on in verse 20 to pray for the church that would grow and expand from the Jewish remnant that believed He was the Messiah of the OT; "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one;..."

Chirst has turned over the responsibility to the church of proclaiming the gospel to the unsaved. To bring a glorified Christ back down to earth to once again commune with unregenerate man is to proclaim that he was not successful in his work on earth.

[ April 13, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: covenant ]

 

HankD,

I can't speak for OldRegular, but I disagree with Paul33 in this statement:

It appears from scripture that Christ was "omnipresent" while here on earth, not that "he could choose to be" as this verse does seem to indicate otherwise;

Matthew Henry has this to say about "...who is in Heaven."

"That he is in heaven. Now at this time, when he is talking with Nicodemus on earth, yet, as God, he is in heaven. The Son of man, as such, was not in heaven till his ascension; but he that was the Son of man was now, by his divine nature, every where present, and particularly in heaven. Thus the Lord of glory, as such, could not be crucified, nor could God, as such, shed his blood; yet that person who was the Lord of glory was crucified (1Co_2:8), and God purchased the church with his own blood, Act_20:28. So close is the union of the two natures in one person that there is a communication of properties."

The fact that He may have been "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time does indicate his "ability" to do the same at any given point in time - even for the 1,000 year reign as is the Pre-Mill view. However, the Pre-Mill view of an earthly reign amongst sinful man in the very same form and nature is a contradiction of scripture and the intent and purpose of the first and last earthly manifestation of God in the flesh.