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What did Jesus mean when He said touch me not

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Jun 18, 2006.

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  1. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Meaning of Don't Touch Me

    Bro Bob,

    Quote:
    _______________________________________________________________
    What about Jesus, was He the First Resurrection, or don't you believe that either?

    As far as the 1000 years I do not believe it is yet to come. I think satan is loosed now.
    _______________________________________________________________

    Now I'm sure you are an Amillennialist!!

    Jesus was NOT part of the "First Resurrection". He was the Firstfruit of the resurrection of ALL believers. The term "First Resurrection" strictly
    applies to Martyrs Beheaded by the Beast because Rev.20:4 refers to
    their role in judging the wicked in the Court of Seal 7 and Dan.7 before they are resurrected and taken bodily to heaven to "serve God as
    Pillars in the Temple of heaven" for 1000 years.

    You are "on record" of having denied the First Resurrection is a Bodily Resurrection and Reign with Christ for 1000 years of those having been "beheaded by the Beast"!!

    Mel www.lastday.net
     
    #81 Mel Miller, Jun 23, 2006
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You do err for the Scripture goes on and says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished. "the rest of the dead is their bodies"!!

    Who will be in that First resurrection?
     
    #82 Brother Bob, Jun 23, 2006
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Meaning of Dont' Touch Me

    Bro Bob,

    Quote:
    ________________________________________________________________
    Mel;
    It says "souls of them". Please tell me why the writer had to go past souls to "of them"?

    Also, John saw them as Souls that were under the altar of God which were just the souls and not the bodies. Also the same is true when he saw them live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
    ________________________________________________________________

    The reason John refers to the souls "OF them" is that they will "sit in judgment" on the Beast while they are still "souls" ... prior to the "first resurrection" which relates to their bodies only.

    You see the "first resurrection" taking place when Christ arose and that it includes all those BODILY resurrected at that time; but then, inconsistently,
    apply that "first resurrection" to the NON-BODILY-RESURRECTED SOULS of
    those killed by the Beast. That is why I call your view false and misleading.

    It is correct to say those "beheaded" for Christ are still SOULS dressed in their pre-resurrectd heavenly bodies as of the first part of Rev.20:4 just as they are seen as such in the 5th Seal, the 7th Seal and between the 6th and 7th Seals!

    They "sit in judgment" on the Beast according to Dan.7:9-22 and Rev.8:1-5
    and Rev.20:4a. This is *VERIFIED* by John's use of the Aorist Indicative of what has already happened up to the moment of the Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection.

    But Rev.20:4b refers to what occurs up to the moment of Christ's descent from
    heaven when ALL 0T AND NT BELIEVERS (except Enoch and the 144,000) will be bodily resurrected simultaneously. That is when those "beheaded BY THE BEAST will live again" in the Bodily Resurrection of all Believers from the grave!

    The souls "OF THEM" (being singled out from all the rest of Believers and from the rest of the dead ... who are unbelievers by definition) will "live again". This contrasts and LIMITS the reference to the "Rest of the Dead and to the First Resurrection" either to those "beheaded by the Beast" OR to those who are Unbeleivers. The latter remain in their graves until the 1000 years "should be finished". John switches from the Aorist Indicative to the Aorist Subjunctive!

    This second fact is *VERIFIED* by John having switched from the Aorist Indicative to the Aorist Subjunctive (future fulfillment) in refering to the INTERIM between the "FIRST Resurrection" and the "SECOND death"!!

    You have sacrificed the truth of the BODILY resurrrection of Tribulation Martyrs
    and adopted the "spiritualization" of the Amillennialist's false doctrine which denies a LITERAL 1000-Year earthly reign of Christ between Rev.20:6 and Rev.20:7.

    The First Resurrection of Rev.20:5, by the Scripture that we shall "all be changed at the last trump", must include ALL believers in their graves; but
    the reference to those who "live again" in verse 4 applies only to those who experience Martyrdom. This revelation, and the Knowledge that Christ is coming in Kingdom Power through the Two Prophets, becomes the incentive to be "faithful unto death" because no believer will "accept the mark of the Beast; and so that "all believers will love not their life unto death". Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8; Rev.12:10-11.

    Furthermore, the Martyrs know in advance that the REASON for mentioning the 1000-Year Reign with Christ is to reward them with "serving God as pillars in the Temple of heaven" for 1000 years BEFORE the New Heaven and Earth are created. Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17.

    Your deduction is totally false that John saw them merely as souls to "live and reign with Christ for a thousand years" BEFORE the second coming of Christ!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #83 Mel Miller, Jun 24, 2006
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    It does not say when this will take place and I disagree with you on the "when". Also the "rest of the dead" I believe it is still talking about the other part of those souls that lived and reigned for a 1000 years which would be the bodies.

    I am glad to hear you say that it is just speaking of souls that reign a 1000 years for that part I agree with. It is just the "rest of the dead" that I disagree with and the timing of the First Resurrection I disagree with for I believe Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection and I also believe that many of the bodies of the Saints arose after "His First Resurrection" and went into that Holy City. In other words they went to Heaven. Also, one day is a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day with the Lord.

    Your explanation is after the "angel" declares "time shall be no longer" and mine is still when there was a 1000 years. Blessings,

    BTW, I have great respect for you at your age and the time and knowledge you have put into this.
     
    #84 Brother Bob, Jun 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    But you misread my veiw. When I said the "rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was finished and this is the first resurrection then I was indeed speaking of the bodies.

    Revelation, chapter 20

    "5": But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    When the "rest of the dead" lived that was the first resurrection not the souls that lived and reigned with Christ for the 1000 years even though this was the souls of the "rest of the dead".
    So I did speak of a resurrection of the bodies, you just didn't get the right meaning out of what I posted. We seem to be close on what we say except "when". Also, I don't know what you think the "rest of the dead is"? After careful reading of your posts I guess we are not so close after all, I thought you said it was just the souls that lived and reigned a 1000 years but after reading again I think you believe it was the whole man. (it is after the "rest of the dead" before it was the first resurrection).
     
    #85 Brother Bob, Jun 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2006
  6. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Don't Touch Me

    Bro Bob,

    I agree with your following quote:
    ________________________________________________________________
    When I said the "rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was finished and this is the first resurrection then I was indeed speaking of the bodies.
    ________________________________________________________________

    But the "rest of the dead" do not take part in the "first resurrection" until the 1000 years "should be finished" ... aorist subjunctive! The Martys rise up bodily in the first resurrection at the second coming of Christ ... aorist indicative. Their resurrection is past tense all of 1000 years before that of the "rest of the dead"! The aorist indicative demands this interpretation.

    The "rest of the dead" do not "live again" physically until the 1000 years "should be finished". But martyrs live again physically before the 1000 years begin.

    The aorist subjunctive demands the separation of 1000 years between the physical resurrection of those beheaded by the Beast and the living again of "the dead, small and great who will be judged and cast into the lake of fire after the old heaven and earth are no longer found".

    Rev.20:4-6 puts the "first resurrection" before the 1000 years begins. Rev.20:7-15 puts the "second death" for the "rest of the dead", who are unbelievers, after the 1000 years are "finished"!

    Bob, you admit the rising up of the "rest of the dead" involves a physical,
    bodily resurrection. But you do not clearly state that those "beheaded by the Beast" will be raised up physically, bodily, at the second coming!

    WHY? Your view is like mixing apples and oranges. :wavey:

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #86 Mel Miller, Jun 26, 2006
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Its because I believe those beheaded were just souls and the rest of the dead were their bodies and Also, I believe it has already happened.

    Why will you not answer if Forthtelling prophesy is preaching?
     
    #87 Brother Bob, Jun 26, 2006
  8. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Bro. Bob,

    You are still mixing apples and oranges. If the "rest of the dead" rise up physically; then those who are "beheaded" will rise up physically. You are
    denying this reality:

    Your Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________
    Its because I believe those beheaded were just souls and the rest of the dead were their bodies and Also, I believe it has already happened.

    Why will you not answer if Forthtelling prophesy is preaching?
    _____________________________________________________________

    The reference to "souls" is a retrospective reference to what happens on the
    Lastday just before the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come as well as the appointed time to resurrect (judge and reward) the dead".

    These "souls" will "sit in judgment on the Beast" before they "live again" !!

    IT IS NOT THE SOULS of the "beheaded" that live again!! It's their bodies. They can't live again with headless bodies!!

    I have answered your remarks about "forthtelling" but, by saying Joel's prophecy and the living again of the Martyrs has already happened, you refuse to admit that the second part of Joel's prophecy ITSELF is totally a matter of "foretelling" !! :wavey:

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
    #88 Mel Miller, Jun 26, 2006
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I am saying they are one and the same Mel;
    The Scripture don't say "of them" for nothing.
    I am saying Joel's prophesies started at the day of pentecost but are continuing all the way until the end.
     
    #89 Brother Bob, Jun 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2006
  10. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Why did Jesus say "Do not touch Me"?

    Bob,

    We are not on the same wavelenghth here either!
    Your points are extremely controversial:

    You wrote:
    What about Jesus, was He the First Resurrection, or don't you believe that either?

    As far as the 1000 years I do not believe it is yet to come. I think satan is loosed now.

    And again you wrote:

    The "rest of the dead" I believe is still talking about the other part of those souls that lived and reigned for a 1000 years which would be the bodies.

    My response has been:
    Jesus was only "firstfruit"; not yet the "first resurrection"!

    Evidence points to the fact that Satan has NOT been loosed to deceive the nations for a "short time" as of Rev.20:8.

    The "souls" of those who are beheaded by the Beast cannot possibly refer to the "first resurrection" until the last martyr has been killed and Jesus comes to avenge their blood.

    There is no possibility for reconciling your Amillennialist view with that of our future 1000-Year Literal Reign with
    Christ over the nations of earth WHILE the Martrys "reign
    with Christ" and "serve God as pillars in the temple in heaven for 1000 years" IN RESURRECTED BODIES!!!!!!!
    Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.

    Mel www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
    #90 Mel Miller, Jun 28, 2006
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Mel;
    Those souls are not the First resurrection but "the rest of the dead" which would be those souls along with their bodies and the Scripture says "this is the First resurrection". The First resurrection was not until the 1000 years was finished.
     
    #91 Brother Bob, Jun 28, 2006
  12. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Brother Bob,

    I need to understand your quote:
    _________________________________________________
    "The First resurrection was not until the 1000 years was finished".
    _________________________________________________

    1. Do the Martyrs take part in the first resurrection when Christ comes to raise up "all believers on the last day"?

    2. Or does the first resurrection occur 1000 years after the Martyrs are raised up on the last day?

    3. Is it possible that the "rest of the dead" refers to all
    unbelievers who "live not" for 1000 years after the Martyrs
    live again in the first resurrection?

    I ask these questions because your opening statement is difficult for me to understand:

    Quote:
    _________________________________________________
    "Those souls are not the First resurrection but `the rest of the dead' which would be those souls along with their bodies and the Scripture says `this is the First resurrection'".
    _________________________________________________

    Are you saying the souls who were "beheaded" live NOT again until the 1000 years are finished?

    I don't understand how these "souls" can refer to the Martyrs from the great tribulation who "lived again and reigned with Christ for 1000 years" (Aorist Indicative; Past Tense) AND at the same time refer to the "rest of the dead who live again after the 1000 years should be finished".
    (Aorist Subjunctive and therefore still future).

    Mel
     
    #92 Mel Miller, Jun 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I am saying it was the souls only that lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years. The reason I say that is the way it is written. "the souls of them" lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years and then the "rest of the dead" their bodies were resurrected and this was the first resurrection. If you read the Scripture close it says lived and reigned, both in the past tense and that is why I believe the 1000 years has been fulfilled.
     
    #93 Brother Bob, Jun 28, 2006
  14. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Bob,

    If the "souls" of the Martyrs beheaded by the Beast lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years prior to the first resurrection (both admittedly past tense), that would mean their bodies will NOT be raised up by Jesus on the day He comes in glory! This contradicts John 6:38-40.

    What I have written several times, including today, is that
    "living again FOR THE REST OF THE DEAD" does not occur
    in the past tense (Indicative MOOD). It occurs in the subjunctive MOOD for what has not yet been fulfilled.

    It means the Martyrs "lived and reigned with Christ" while serving God in the Temple for 1000 years before the "rest of the dead live again" !!

    I note you responded to my three questions in a matter of minutes ... without even referring to those questions!!!

    Mel
     
    #94 Mel Miller, Jun 28, 2006
  15. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Bob,

    You cannot say the "souls" that sit in judgment occurs for
    1000 years. They are referred to as "souls" before they begin to "live and reign with Christ".

    Later in the same verse "they lived and reigned" does not
    refer only to their "souls" BUT includes their resurrected
    bodies BECAUSE Jesus said He will "raise up all believers
    on the last day ... the Day He comes in power and glory"!!

    Mel
     
    #95 Mel Miller, Jun 28, 2006
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Mel;
    Believe me I try to study every word you write. My mind works rather fast. Please don't feel I am not taking what you are saying into consideration.
    To believe as I do Mel, you have to believe that Jesus is the First resurrection and that it has already happened and the saints that arose with him is the first resurrection. I believe strongly that the 1000 years is as 1 day and 1 day as a 1000 years and the only time I can find where that Satan might of been bound was because of the fear of God when Jesus died and the earth turned dark and even the one who peirced him in the side confessed. That must of been such a time with the whole earth turned dark and the earthquakes and the mountains renting that a fear come on this earth such as never been.
    The end of time is going to be the same way. The earth will turn dark and the moon to blood and a great fear is going to come upon mankind that he will pray for the mountains and rocks to fall upon him and every tongue again shall do as the guard did that peirced him in the side they shall confess that Jesus is the Christ.

    I know you probably will not accept this belief but that is why it is past tense the reigned and the lived.:Fish:
     
    #96 Brother Bob, Jun 28, 2006
  17. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    Why did Jesus say "Don't Touch Me"?

    Bob,

    At 7:49 PM yesterday I asked for clarification of your statement:

    "The First resurrection was not until the 1000 years was finished".


    I asked 3 questions relative to this. Within 6 minutes here was your answer:
    ________________________________________________________________________
    “It was the souls only that lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years”.


    At 8:23 PM I replied that "they lived and reigned" does not refer only to their "souls" BUT includes their resurrected bodies BECAUSE Jesus will "raise up all believers on the last day by coming in power and glory"!!

    These Disembodied SOULS do not begin to “reign with Christ until He comes in glory and power and resurrects their bodies. Your view that they reign with Christ in disembodied souls refuses to recognize that the “first resurrection” requires the glorified bodies of ALL believers!

    You continue to insist that Christ is the first resurrection. NO, NO. He and those who arose with Him can only be referenced as “firstfruit”!! The "First Resurrection" is still
    future because the resurrected Martyrs begin to reign with Christ when He comes to "avenge their blood"!!

    You did not take time to answer my questions. Your response at 8:26 PM, JUST THREE MINUTES LATER, not only ignores that the Martyrs “lived and reigned” with Christ AFTER He comes in Person to resurrect all believers on the last day BUT reveals:

    You are ignoring my requests and simply parroting what you believe!!

    If your method rests on claiming to “have a quick mind" as you state, I am wasting my time responding to a constant replay of the same thing over and over without any response to my specific questions!!

    This is regrettable. I like the characteristic of one showing authority; but your type of response consistently shows an attitude of superiority over those who wish to share ideas in an open forum.

    I don’t mean to be harsh; but my time is valuable and my questions are sincere. I actually agree with you that they “lived and reigned” with Christ in the “PAST TENSE” But the PAST TENSE refers to what begins to occur 1000 years prior to the “2nd death” which is 1000 years after Christ
    resurrects all believers.

    You are totally misguided to say that a DAY with God is a thousand years. It’s His long-patience, not the length of 365,000 days, that SEEMS LIKE a single Day.

    Bob, please respect my time and effort to reach agreement or stop these three-minute messages that get no results.
    Mel :wavey:
     
    #97 Mel Miller, Jun 29, 2006
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Ok Mel;
    I will answer you tomorrow. I already know my answer as you know yours, but I will wait until tomorrow to respond.:praying: I don't think you are getting my point that the First resurrection is not until the "rest of the dead" which is the bodies. So it is both soul and body in the First resurrection but not in the lived and reigned. I have studied this for years as you have too. Years of study is not going to be overcome by moment of time. I know now that I am not going to change your mind, am I? :saint:
     
    #98 Brother Bob, Jun 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2006
  19. Brother Jeremy Slone

    Brother Jeremy Slone New Member

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    Amen Brother Rex. thats How I see it too. This is why then we read Thomas could touch him.
     
    #99 Brother Jeremy Slone, Jun 29, 2006
  20. Brother Jeremy Slone

    Brother Jeremy Slone New Member

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    [QUOTE=Rex77,So Jesus our High priest was about to take his blood to heaven to sprinkle it on the mercy seat in heaven then return to earth . that is when the others could hold him, and did.

    Amen Brother Rex. thats How I see it too.
     
    #100 Brother Jeremy Slone, Jun 29, 2006
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