What did the "Reformers" reform that needed reforming??

[Wesley Briggman]

What did the "Reformers" reform that needed reforming??

 

[atpollard]

Martin Luther took aim at a church that had lost its way. Popes bought elections and then needed to raise money to pay the debt that generated. Illiterate wandering priests sold writs of salvation for your dead relatives to escape torment and enter heaven. When Martin sought to have his case heard, an plot was made to assassinate him. Ultimately, the Catholic Church itself attacked many of the abuses that Luther had sought to put right.

Those that came after Luther, chose to reject the Magisterium and return to the actual words of the Apostles for themselves … they arrived at conclusions contrary to “traditions” and sought to reform “traditions” back to the “5 Solas”.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Ultimately, the Catholic Church itself attacked many of the abuses that Luther had sought to put right.

Thanks for your reply. I am interested to learn more details concerning the changes made by the RCC to correct the abuses. Any source or documentation to enlighten me would be appreciated.

 

[Ascetic X]

What did the "Reformers" reform that needed reforming??

 

[GentleGospeller]

What did the "Reformers" reform that needed reforming??

I find this to be a helpful summary (in parts) -

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I find this to be a helpful summary (in parts)

I don't intend to watch a 90min movie. Can you articulate the "helpful summary"?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

What?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

So far, there are no documented responses. Why?

 

[Ascetic X]

So far, there are no documented responses. Why?

Have you tried doing an internet search?

What Was Reformed in the Reformation?

Religious Authority and Doctrine

• • Source of Authority: Shifted ultimate spiritual authority from the Pope and Church tradition to the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura).
  • Path to Salvation: Rejected the idea that salvation or grace could be earned through good works, penance, or church rituals, asserting instead that salvation comes through faith alone (Sola Fide) and grace alone (Sola Gratia).
  • Priesthood of All Believers: Eliminated the strict hierarchical divide between the ordained clergy and the laity, teaching that all believers have autonomous, independent, immediate, direct access to God through Christ.

Abuses and Practices

• • Indulgences: Abolished the sale of indulgences—certificates that claimed to reduce a soul's time in purgatory.
  • Clerical Corruption: Addressed widespread moral failures, wealth accumulation, and absenteeism among the clergy.
  • Veneration and Saints: Reduced or eliminated prayers to Mary and the saints, along with the ornate display of relics.

Worship and Church Structure

• • Language of Worship: Replaced Latin masses with services conducted in the local, everyday language of the people.
  • Sacraments: Reduced the seven Catholic sacraments down to those explicitly found in Scripture, typically baptism and the Lord's Supper (communion).
  • Clerical Marriage: Ended mandatory celibacy for priests, allowing religious leaders to marry.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What did the "Reformers" reform that needed reforming??

In 1408, Thomas Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury, published the following decision:
'We therefore legislate and ordain that nobody shall from this day forth translate any text of Holy Scripture on his own authority into English or any other language, whether in the form of a book, pamphlet or tract; and that any such book, pamphlet or tract, whether composed recently or in the time of John Wycliffe, or in the future, shall not be read in part or in whole, in public or in private.' This followed another act, De Heretico Comburendo, 'On the Burning of Heretics,' of 1400.

These laws were in response to the so-called 'Lollard Bibles' written at the instigation of John Wyclif. Following them, literally hundreds of English Christians were burned to death for reading the Bible and following its teachings. It was still going on well into the reign of Henry VIII. In 1513, a very senior cleric, John Colet, Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London, was suspended from his position for translating the Lord's Prayer into English.

So the most important reform was the granting to ordinary people the right to read the word of God in their own language. Once this had been granted, the other reforms became inevitable.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks for your reply. I am interested to learn more details concerning the changes made by the RCC to correct the abuses. Any source or documentation to enlighten me would be appreciated.

Martin Luther from a Catholic Perspective | Faithful Critique

 

[atpollard]

Not an ”authoritative” source by any stretch of the imagination, but I asked and Google AI provided a summary:

when did the catholic church address the corruption that Luther complained about



The Catholic Church officially and comprehensively addressed the financial and clerical corruption complained about by Martin Luther during the Council of Trent, which met in three distinct periods between 1545 and 1563. [1, 2]
While Pope Paul III initially convened the ecumenical council to combat the rise of the Protestant Reformation, it ultimately launched the Counter-Reformation, structurally reforming the inner workings of the Church. [1, 2]

Timeline of the Catholic Church's Response

• 1517: Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses, primarily targeting the abuse and commercialization of papal indulgences.
• 1520–1521: The Church initially responded by ordering Luther to recant and subsequently excommunicating him, choosing to defend papal authority rather than immediately reform systemic abuses.
• 1545–1563: The Council of Trent was held to systematically dismantle the corrupt administrative practices Luther had critiqued. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Core Abuses Addressed and Reformed
The Council issued sweeping disciplinary decrees that directly corrected the specific financial and behavioral corruption Luther had exposed: [1]

Luther's Core Complaint	Council of Trent Resolution
The Sale of Indulgences	The Council strictly banned the sale and trafficking of indulgences for money, declaring the practice an abuse, though it upheld the spiritual validity of non-commercial indulgences.
Uneducated, Absentee Clergy	The Church mandated the creation of theological seminaries in every diocese to properly educate priests. It also outlawed absenteeism (bishops collecting income from regions where they did not reside).
Simony and Pluralism	It banned pluralism (the corrupt practice of one man buying or holding multiple church offices at the same time to amass wealth).
Financial Extortion	It established strict financial oversight and bookkeeping practices to eliminate embezzlement by church leaders.

Theological Separation
While the Catholic Church successfully cleansed its administrative corruption to restore institutional integrity, it firmly rejected Luther’s theological changes. The Council of Trent doubled down on traditional Catholic doctrines, officially condemning Luther's ideas of sola fide (salvation by faith alone) and sola scriptura(scripture as the sole authority). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

 

[Ascetic X]

Not an ”authoritative” source by any stretch of the imagination, but I asked and Google AI provided a summary:

Theological Separation
While the Catholic Church successfully cleansed its administrative corruption to restore institutional integrity, it firmly rejected Luther’s theological changes. The Council of Trent doubled down on traditional Catholic doctrines, officially condemning Luther's ideas of sola fide (salvation by faith alone) and sola scriptura(scripture as the sole authority). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Thus, the Roman Catholic leadership reformed some administrative aspects to reinforce their institution, but did not reform their corrupt doctrines.

 

[GentleGospeller]

I don't intend to watch a 90min movie. Can you articulate the "helpful summary"?

How about from about 1:18:00 to about 1:26:00 then.

 

[Cathode]

Any of you guys ask what authority Luther had to interpret scripture differently to the whole Church? Or do you just grant him superior authority?

 

[Ascetic X]

Any of you guys ask what authority Luther had to interpret scripture differently to the whole Church? Or do you just grant him superior authority?

What authority did the bishop of Rome have to claim infallibility ex cathedra and to reign as “pope” over all the bishops of other cities?

Did he just grant himself superior authority?

 

[Cathode]

What authority did the bishop of Rome have to claim infallibility ex cathedra and to reign as “pope” over all the bishops of other cities?

Did he just grant himself superior authority?

The Chair of Peter had a long established apostolic authority.

But Luther? You grant authority why?

 

[Ascetic X]

The Chair of Peter had a long established apostolic authority.

But Luther? You grant authority why?

The chair of Rome’s bishop was not recognized as supreme by the Orthodox Church and has no scriptural authorization, just vain traditions of men.

 

[Cathode]

The chair of Rome’s bishop was not recognized as supreme by the Orthodox Church and has no scriptural authorization, just vain traditions of men.

The Eastern Orthodox Church rejected its own tradition and greatest scholars and patriarchs when it broke with the Chair of Peter.

Maximus of Constantinople 650Ad

If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, accodring to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).​

John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)

The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)

St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)

Without whom (the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles. (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).

This is long established authority of the papacy in the eastern churches.

You haven’t answered why you hold Luther as greater authority, or any authority at all.


Why is Luther your apostle?