What Dispensationalism Provides?

[Pastor Larry]

If this present nation of Israel is involved, we are assured of at least a billion more years on earth!

Why is that? When God "pours out his Spirit of supplication" and "gives them a new heart," it won't take a billion years.

This parenthetical church age, an after thought of God, is a lot of hogwash, if I must say so.

I agree. I don't think the church was an afterthought at all. It was a part of God's sovereign plan from the beginning.

 

[Jim1999]

So, Scofield, Larkin and the likes are all passe now! I can throw out half my library.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

So, Scofield, Larkin and the likes are all passe now! I can throw out half my library.

I don't know how many people pay attention to these guys, but from what you have said here, you don't pay much attention to these guys anyway. So go ahead, throw them out.

Dispensationalism, like Amillennialism or anything else, is constantly undergoing study that leads to refinement, correction, revision, etc. So it should be no surprise that these men are not at the forefront of current teaching on dispensationalism.

 

[Jim1999]

What I see is a temporary redemption achieved by the cross because once the parenthetical stage is over by some mystical secret rapture the world reverts back to an animal sacrifice and the temple laws for redemption.

If I throw out a lot of those books, I assure you there will be a host of dispensationalists scampering to grab them up; the revival of MR DeHaan and sons, Charles E. Fuller, The Back to the Bible broadcasters, including Herman A. Hoyt to name a few.

Cheers, I frankly don't get it,

Jim

 

[Jim1999]

Pastor Larry, Is this correct?

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/dispensationalism.html

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Me4Him]

Many believe the 70 the week culminated with the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem and that the Antichrist was Nero Caesar possibly a combination of Nero And Calligula. So Daniel ends with the destruction of Jerusalem and the establishment of christianity.

The 69th week ended with Jesus, and picks up after Jesus leaves. (Pre trib Rapture)

There's a gap of "TWO DAYS" (day=1000 years) between the 69th and 70th week.

Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans (Gentiles) were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: (Church) and he abode there two days.

Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Leadership by both the "law and prophets" and "Jesus/Comforter" can't function at the same time, same time frame, too many contradictions between them.

The 70th week ends with the brightness of Jesus's return destroying the AC.

 

[Me4Him]

Jesus has already fulfilled this prophecy for "BELIEVERS",

But what about Israel????

The 70th week (trib) has begun for them, "YET"?????


The 70 week (trib) "HASN'T" begun for them, yet.


Wanted to correct that.

 

[webdog]

Cheers, I frankly don't get it,

Apparently

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jesus has already fulfilled this prophecy for "BELIEVERS",

But what about Israel????

The 70th week (trib) has begun for them, "YET"?????


The 70 week (trib) "HASN'T" begun for them, yet.


Wanted to correct that.

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it! :thumbs:

What Me4Him says here will be PROVED at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=3

But I can't get folks to buy into the Fundamentals of Christianity??? I guess all the fundamentals went home and the "BB is a Liberal Board" montras (my speller program is broke) of other Baptist boards must be true?

 

[Pastor Larry]

What I see is a temporary redemption achieved by the cross because once the parenthetical stage is over by some mystical secret rapture the world reverts back to an animal sacrifice and the temple laws for redemption.

Being a dispensationalist, I don't see that at all. But perhaps my problem is that I know too much about it.

If I throw out a lot of those books, I assure you there will be a host of dispensationalists scampering to grab them up

Probably.

Cheers, I frankly don't get it,

I used to not get it either. When I began to study in earnest, the pieces started falling in place.

Pastor Larry, Is this correct?

It's not great. It's fair. Has some pretty major mistakes in it, and has some truth in it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Reply to WHAT DISPENSATIONALISM PROVIDES

Pastor Larry, Is this correct?

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/dispensationalism.html

Cheers,

Jim

Ed says: NO

It has so many errors compared to my brand of dispensational Eschatology that it would take a whole topic to expose all the errors there in.

For Ed's brand of dispensational Eschatology see:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

Drop by and tell us one can't really agree with Fundamental Theology.

 

[Jim1999]

JUst a bit of amusement:

In 1947 when the telly first came out in England, the PB's wanted nothing to do with this unChristian device of sin. Then, a PB preacher said the scripture says, "Every eye will see Him.....in the rapture...." With a globe this is impossible, so it must mean the telly will allow every eye to see Him. Soon all the PB's in the UK were buying tellies and saying it was in the Bible.

As I said, just for smiles in this far too serious thread......

Cheers,

Jim

 

[canadyjd]

Yes. When Israel is restored it will be "all Israel" after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (Romans 11). They will be saved by turning to their Messiah whom they previously rejected (Zech 12:9; Rev 1:6-7).

The church is the one new man. Those who are not a part of the church are not included.

What exactly does "turning to their Messiah" mean? Are they saved by grace through faith?

If they have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, how exactly is that different from Christians?

If they are not part of the church (body of Christ, bride of Christ, etc...) will they be in heaven?

If they are in heaven because they have faith in Jesus Christ, how exactly is that different from Christians?

Are there separate places in heaven for the Jews and for the Christians?

peace to youraying:

 

[Pastor Larry]

What exactly does "turning to their Messiah" mean?

Accepting him as their Messiah.

Are they saved by grace through faith?

Of course. Everyone has always been saved by grace through faith.

If they have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, how exactly is that different from Christians?

In that particular respect, nothing.

If they are not part of the church (body of Christ, bride of Christ, etc...) will they be in heaven?

Yes, in the new heavens and the new earth.

If they are in heaven because they have faith in Jesus Christ, how exactly is that different from Christians?

In that particular respect nothing.

Are there separate places in heaven for the Jews and for the Christians?

Some believe that the MK Jews are in the new earth, not the new heaven. I am unpersuaded on that.

The real question is this: Will God keep his promises? Of course, you will say he will. But my suspicion is that you make some pretty big changes to those promises.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Canadyjd: // What exactly does "turning to their Messiah" mean? Are they saved by grace through faith? //

The real Messiah (Hebrew: Anointed one) is Jesus. 'Turning to their Messiah' means that they realise that Jesus is indeed the REAL Messiah - means that they recognize Him as Lord.

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

In the current age (dispensation) {Time of the Gentiles, Church Age, etc} Israel and the largely Gentile Church is one.

After the end of this age (dispensation); at the pre-tribulation raptute2, the saved Gentiles will be gone. In the Tribulation Period there are no Church Age mostly gentile saved persons to talk about, there will be (at the start) only unsaved gentiles and unsaved Israeli /except for the 144K of Rev 7/ . The Israeli will be saved when they individually turn to their Messiah: Jesus. Then it will be as said:

Romans 11:25C-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
... blindnesse in part is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

In the Tribulation (on gentiles, BTW) Period, there will only Jewish Israeli persons, no Gentile Church)

In the Era (Age, dispensation) following the Tribulation Period, the Millennial Messanic Kingdom will be three sorts of people:

1. temporal bodies, unsaved members of gentiles nations selected at the Sheep & Goats judgement (see Matthew 25)
2. temporal bodies*, saved Israeli
3. eternal bodies, saved persons from the Church Age (and earlier)

*- there is evidence the Israeli will also be in eternal bodies as there will be a post-tribulation rapture1 - but possibly no gentiles to rapture then

More about this at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

 

[Me4Him]

But I can't get folks to buy into the Fundamentals of Christianity??? I guess all the fundamentals went home and the "BB is a Liberal Board" montras (my speller program is broke) of other Baptist boards must be true?

I can't cut/copy text, only delete/paste, and my "IEspellchecker" doesn't work on this site either, but works everywhere else,

What gives?? :tonofbricks:

 

[canadyjd]

The real question is this: Will God keep his promises? Of course, you will say he will. But my suspicion is that you make some pretty big changes to those promises.

OK, let's look at the promises. What promise will be fulfilled by a National Israel that hasn't already been fulfilled in the O.T. or by the person of Jesus Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

[Martin Luther]

Why?

Because this passage is talking about the church, not Israel. All people believe that Jew and Gentile are one in the church. Citing this passage as if it refutes dispensationalism is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the verse is talking about and what dispensationalism believes. Whatever the differences between CT and DT and the various inbetween points might be, this verse does not address them.

Though it is interesting that if the church has no racial/ethnic divisions, and if the church has always existed since the the time of Adam or Abraham (i.e., in the OT), then what does Eph 2 really say? It is talking about something new, is it not? If the unity between believing Jew and Gentile is new in the NT after Christ died, then that has some pretty serious implications for the church in the OT, whether as to its existence or its makeup.

In Revelation chapters 2 and 3 Christ idicates to the churches that they will be:

1. given the tree of life which is in the midst of paradise


2. a crown of life


3. nor hurt of the second death


4. given hidden manna


5. a white stone with a new name


6. power over nations


7. clothed in white raiment


8. name confessed before God


9. kept from the hour of temptation


10. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name"


11. granted to sit with Christ in His throne





Some verses to show how all those of faith will be spiritual Israelites

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:


Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:7
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 6:17
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:


Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Hebrews 11:9
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


There are many more, the church is going to be restored Israel, Gods people are those who follow His blessed Son.

 

[Pastor Larry]

OK, let's look at the promises. What promise will be fulfilled by a National Israel that hasn't already been fulfilled in the O.T. or by the person of Jesus Christ?

Wow ... where to begin.

How about the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:35-40 35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

How about Amos 9:13-15 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "When the plowman will overtake the reaper And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; When the mountains will drip sweet wine And all the hills will be dissolved. 14 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God. (Before you cite Acts 15, please read it and note that James says it "agrees" not "fulfills.")

I could list a lot more, but I would be cutting and pasting a lot of the Scriptures. These are all over the place. The fact is that Israel has not be restored to live in peace and security in the land. The New Covenant has specific places names. Amos 9 says "rebuild the ruined cities and live in them." That makes no sense in the new heaven and new earth since there are no ruined cities there to rebuild.

So these passages are insurmountable without doing great injustice to the text of Scripture. I don't think we should do that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There are many more, the church is going to be restored Israel, Gods people are those who follow His blessed Son.

But you recognize that none of those verses actually say that, right? Read them again. Not one of them conclusively says that the church is restored Israel. They can only be read that way if you start with certain presuppositions about what the text must say.