What Dispensationalism Provides?

[canadyjd]

First, (to repeat myself) 'olam doesn't mean unending. Just get out a lexicon and look it up. I think even something as basic as Strong's will show this by looking up the passages. It can mean a very long period of time, which the MK certainly has.

'olam (#5769) concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; gen. time out of mind (past of future), i.e. (practically) eternity; always, continuence, eternal, everlasting, long (time)....without end. From: A concise dictionary of the Hebrew Bible...by James Strong, S.T.D., LL.D.

The "natural" way to understand the word is eternal. The one defintion that is not mentioned is the one you hold to, i.e. for 1000 years. Saying something is a "long time", does not mean 1000 years.

I suspect if God, through Jeremiah, wanted to say the city of Jerusalem would stand for 1000 years, he would have found a way to say those exact words.

Instead, God chose the word 'olam, which has the most natural understanding of "eternal" or "everlasting" or "without end". The context of the passage certainly supports that understanding.

Second, understand the context of destruction for the OT. It has to do with destruction for disobedience. Remember, Israel was promised peace and security in the land for obedience, and they were promised exile and destruction for disobedience. That is the context in which this promise was made.

The passage says the city of Jerusalem will never again be destroyed after it is rebuilt.

You have suggested I am reading into the text certain presuppositions. I simply ask you to take a look at your own presuppositions. Take a look at how you have to nuance the meaning of the word in order to maintain your view the city will stand for 1000 years.

You do not hold to the most natural understanding and use of 'olam. Instead, you hold to a meaning (1000 years) that is not even mentioned as a possibility, unless you read into the meaning "long period of time" as meaning the exact period of 1000 years.

You attempt to use the context of the first destruction of the city for disobedience to suggest God is only saying He won't destroy the city for disobedience when God promises the rebuilt city of Jerusalem will never again be destroyed forever.

I really do appreciate the civil discourse we have had on this subject. I, for one, am always open to the possibility that I am wrong concerning my understanding of scripture.

To convince me, however, you must show me how I am wrong from scripture in context.

What you have stated does not convince me.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Peter was writing to jews, not the church.

 

[canadyjd]

Peter was writing to jews, not the church.

Peter was writing to Christians, that made up churches. There were probably both Jews and Gentiles in these churches, but they were Christians.

He calls these Christians, "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;"

No doubt about it.

peace to youraying:

 

[Martin Luther]

Peter was writing to jews, not the church.

Are you kidding me? So were these "jews" under the law or under grace? Peter is part of the church, he wrote to the church, everyone saved after Christ is added to the church.

Peter also wrote this


1 Peter 5:13

13The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

 

[Martin Luther]

Are you kidding me? So were these "jews" under the law or under grace? Peter is part of the church, he wrote to the church, everyone saved after christ is added to the church.

Peter also wrote this


1 Peter 5:13

13The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

and Paul says:


Romans 3:21-23

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:



Romans 10:11-13

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



Acts 10:34-35

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.




You see, anyone could convert even in the O.T. and they would have the same heritage as a blood born Israelite.






Isaiah 56:6-7

6Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.


The holy mountain will be restored Israel, the church, the elect, the bride of Messiah. I do believe that God will save a remnant of actual Israel, the 144,000. I believe these are also added to the church.

 

[gb93433]

Now John F. Walvoord, former president and chancellor of Dallas Theological Seminary, is supposedly the preeminent theologian among classical dispensationalists yet he makes an incorrect statement in an effort to prove his incorrect premise, that the Church is not present during the time period covered in Revelation 4-18, and this in a book written to the Church.

You just exposed a problem among dispensationalist systematic theologies. Many of the younger dispensationalists do not agree with Walvoord. At least two changes in despensationalism have been made since Walvoord.

 

[Me4Him]

Peter was writing to jews, not the church.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=1918&page=6

Last post.

 

[OldRegular]

Peter was writing to jews, not the church.

That is absolute nonsense! Peter begins his 2nd epistle as follows:

1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

He is obviously writing to the Church. The jews were unbelievers so he could not refer to them as: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. If they were believing jews then they constituted the church.

 

[Martin Luther]

That is absolute nonsense! Peter begins his 2nd epistle as follows:

1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

He is obviously writing to the Church. The jews were unbelievers so he could not refer to them as: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. If they were believing jews then they constituted the church.

Good post. Dispensationalist don't know what to do with the majority of the NT. I like to point out this passage in Heb


Hebrews 13:20-24

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

22And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.

23Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

24Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.


Clearly the church.


Hebrews 12:22-24

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.





These books that dispensationalist relegate to tribulation saints are laced with references to specific people who lived during that time. These books were received by those who presumed they were a part of the NT church living 2000 years ago. There is no way that these books were intended for trib saints only.

 

[webdog]

That is absolute nonsense! Peter begins his 2nd epistle as follows:

1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

He is obviously writing to the Church. The jews were unbelievers so he could not refer to them as: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. If they were believing jews then they constituted the church.

I was discussing 1 Peter...was I not? Red Herring...

 

[webdog]

Peter was writing to Christians, that made up churches. There were probably both Jews and Gentiles in these churches, but they were Christians.

He calls these Christians, "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;"

No doubt about it.

peace to youraying:

Who was Peter's target audience during his ministry (as opposed to Paul's)? Who made up the early church in Acts (there have always been gentile proselytes throughout time, btw)? Who was dispersed? Would gentiles know about Christ being the rejected stone...about the quotes Peter takes from the Torah? Are gentiles familiar with the "royal priesthood"? Who were the "exiles of dispersion"? Did jews commonly call each other "brother"? Would gentiles recognize Peter's titles given to Israel in 2:9? Would gentiles know who the servant from Isaiah 53 is?

True, there were some gentiles among the target audience (the exiles of dispersion...jews living outside of Palestine), but they were not the focus of the letter.

 

[gb93433]

That is absolute nonsense! Peter begins his 2nd epistle as follows:

1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

He is obviously writing to the Church. The jews were unbelievers so he could not refer to them as: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. If they were believing jews then they constituted the church.

You might add a little to that. He is writing to the church at that location but in the message he also addresses those who are listening and they are not always all believers. It is much the same as when the church meets today. In most cases there are also non-Christians present.

Grace is a Greek greeting and peace is a Jewish greeting. The audience in this case is mixed.

 

[OldRegular]

You might add a little to that. He is writing to the church at that location but in the message he also addresses those who are listening and they are not always all believers. It is much the same as when the church meets today. In most cases there are also non-Christians present.

Grace is a Greek greeting and peace is a Jewish greeting. The audience in this case is mixed.

Thanks for the amplification.:love2:

 

[webdog]

You might add a little to that. He is writing to the church at that location but in the message he also addresses those who are listening and they are not always all believers. It is much the same as when the church meets today. In most cases there are also non-Christians present.

Grace is a Greek greeting and peace is a Jewish greeting. The audience in this case is mixed.

There was no church being addressed. In the same way Paul's letter to the Romans was intended for gentiles, he did take 3 chapters to address specifically jewish believers. The majority of those outside of Palestine who were disperssed were jews, and this was Peter's target audience.

 

[OldRegular]

There was no church being addressed. In the same way Paul's letter to the Romans was intended for gentiles, he did take 3 chapters to address specifically jewish believers. The majority of those outside of Palestine who were disperssed were jews, and this was Peter's target audience.

You are denying Scripture but that is your choice.

Peter begins his 2nd epistle as follows:

1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

He is obviously writing to the Church. The jews were unbelievers so he could not refer to them as: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. If they were believing jews then they constituted the church.

 

[webdog]

You are denying Scripture but that is your choice.

Peter begins his 2nd epistle as follows:

1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

He is obviously writing to the Church. The jews were unbelievers so he could not refer to them as: to them that have obtained like precious faith with us. If they were believing jews then they constituted the church.

I'm not denying anything. Are you that short of memory? We are discussing 1 Peter, and it was NOT addressed to any church in particular, but the "elect", which context dictates how it is used. I find in no place where a gentile believer is referred to as the elect, a new gentile convert would not know the meaning of this term, but someone familiar to God's promise to Israel would.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm not denying anything. Are you that short of memory? We are discussing 1 Peter, and it was NOT addressed to any church in particular, but the "elect", which context dictates how it is used. I find in no place where a gentile believer is referred to as the elect, a new gentile convert would not know the meaning of this term, but someone familiar to God's promise to Israel would.

My mistake webdog! However, the 1st Epistle of Peter was also written to the Church, that is believers in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:1-5
1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1. First Peter is writing the elect.[Verse 2] The early church consisted of the elect, among both Jew and Gentile.
2. They are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.[Verse 2]
3. They have hope because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.[Verse 3]
4. They are kept by the power of God through faith. [Verse 5]

That is certainly not the description of unbelieving Jews but of Christians, Jew or Gentile.

1Peter 1:7-9
7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

It is obvious to anyone who can read that Peter is writing to believers who, as Peter states: yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1.18-23
18. Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19. But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20. Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21. Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1. Peter again repeats that they were redeemed with the precious blood of Christ
2. Peter also uses the same phrase that Jesus Christ used to describe believers: They were born again!

Now surely webdog you are not going to claim that this epistle was writen to unbelieving Jews and that the verses posted by Amy G do not describing Christians.

1 Peter 2:9, 10
9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Verse 9 is a compilation of phrases used to describe the people of God in the Old Testament. Peter is now applying them to Gentiles as so clearly indicated in Verse 10, to wit: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[webdog]

See post 114.

 

[OldRegular]

See post 114.

I looked at post 114 and you are still wrong. To argue that the epistles of Peter were not addressed to Christians is sheer nonsense and demonstrates the closed mind of those who have bought into the Darby/Scofield fantasy.

 

[Pastor Larry]

To argue that the epistles of Peter were not addressed to Christians is sheer nonsense and demonstrates the closed mind of those who have bought into the Darby/Scofield fantasy.

I buy into what you call the "Darby/Scofield fantasy" (though the name could not be more inaccurate), and I think that the Petrine epistles were written to Christians in churches scattered throughout Asia Minor.

It shows what I have said before, that there is a distinction between what dispensationalism holds and what some dispensationalists might believe. It is necessary to make that distinction in order to keep from throwing out the right things on the basis of wrong things.

However, if you make that distinction you will find yourself with a lot less to complain about.

Now back to my hibernation ...