What do Arminians believe regarding losing one's salvation:?

Translation: I don't have biblical support for my position, so I'm out of here.

 

the judgement of men was wether they thought paul actions to be of a fool or not..
He was speaking to carnal christians...

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We [are] fools for Christ's sake, but ye [are] wise in Christ; we [are] weak, but ye [are] strong; ye [are] honourable, but we [are] despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, [and are] the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn [you].
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

whats persecution..its ignorance and enmity between brothers that are within the family of God as we judge each other before truth is realized.

we tear each other apart like dogs and act like pigs as truth in the form of pearls are thrown to us.

its those living under law persecuting those living under grace.

and we return to...

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

the Lord comes to us often and unaware. we are presently in the "day of the lord". we are continually judged and rewarded. 24/7/365

was Paul right in dying to his own self-will and allowing his righteous spirit within to be broken for others sake.?

thats the foolishness of it all.

did a carnal man (adam) die for others or did a righteous man (jesus) die for others?..

why a righteous man died...how foolish.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

dont think this is about denying the flesh its sinful actions. this is focused on accepting the life of the spirit to flow from you. your thoughts will not be concerned wether you sin or not if you are abiding in the life of the spirit

as paul didnt count wether he did or not. He only concentrated on the crusifiction and its meaning to him. how he must allow God to crusify his righteous spirit for others.

namely for all of his disobedient brothers which he loved "in Christ".

Me2

 

That is not a true statement, Yelsew. All of God's word is inspired and all of it is therefore of equal value and weight.


2 Tim. 3:16 (ESV)
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righ teousness,

 

So you are saying that the White Throne judgement is not going to be when Jesus returns? I've always assumed that the judgements were at the same time. If one is found guilty, then on burns. If one is not, then one is going to heaven. To seperate the two judgements is to simply play word games. </font>[/QUOTE]If the judgment that you describe happens at the beginning of the millenial reign of Jesus on the earth, what happens to those who are born into the natural life during the millenial reign? When do they get judged?

 

That is not a true statement, Yelsew. All of God's word is inspired and all of it is therefore of equal value and weight.


2 Tim. 3:16 (ESV)
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righ teousness, </font>[/QUOTE]We'll just have to disagree, but when it comes truth I put my trust in the words of God the Son.

 

Yep, we disagree. And I put my trust in God's Son and I believe all of the words in the Bible which were all inspired by God the Holy Spirit.

 

Yep, we disagree. And I put my trust in God's Son and I believe all of the words in the Bible which were all inspired by God the Holy Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]Where apparent conflicts exist between the writings of His apostles and the recorded words of Jesus, one would be foolish to put equal weight on both. For example Jesus says that Believing in Him equals everlasting life. You would argue that is not good enough according to the writings of one of the apostles.

It is the words of Jesus that bring salvation, while the words of the Apostles teach us how to live the Christian life.

Believe as you will, but I am Christian because I believe in the Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God. If that was not the case, I could be Pauline, or Jamesian, or Peterite, or Judite, etc. But I am Christian.

 

I agree. Those who disagree about very core issues of what the Bible teaches can't come to an agreement. All they can do is agree to disagree.

Yelsew,

Now I see why that whole pre and post trib thing is so important to some people. I always assume that what the Bibe teaches has to do with the here and now and that there are only two real divisions in life. What happens when we live and what happens when we die. After we die, everyone is going to be judged, as I said earlier, to say otherwise is to quibble over words. The Bible says we shouldn't do that.

 

There are no conflicts between the writings of the Holy Spirit-inspired writers of the Bible and the words of Christ Jesus, which were also written down by Holy Spirit-inspired writers.

You seem to be saying that the Holy Spirit contradicted Himself in the Bible. I do not believe that to be the case.

 

Eladar,

Your confession is very revealing, and I'm sure that you won't continue to thing as you have. The Gospel message does not result in the hear and now, but rather in the life hereafter.

After we die from this natural life, there will be two judgements.

The first is the judgment of "our works". All that we have, have done, and what we cling to will be tested as is by fire. That which is truly good will come through the fire as if it were Gold, Silver, and precious stones. Gold and silver melt into a molten state but do not lose the characteristics of purity. Prescious stones survive fire, and are just as valuable after the fire as before. That which is not good will be burned away in the same manner that Wood, Hay, and stubble become ash. That which survives the fire will be laid at Jesus feet.

The second judgment is where the sheep are separated from the goats, the believers from the unbelievers. The unbelievers must be judged and are then cast into the lake of fire for the second death. The Believers are passed from the first death unto life eternal because they do not face the judgment or the second death.

 

Don't be naive, KenH, If there were no "apparent conflicts" we would not be having these discussions.

When Peter says that faith plus works saves, and Jesus says that an individual's belief in Him saves, that is a conflict. When one scripture says, "believe and be baptised and thou shalt be saved", that is faith plus something, and it raises baptism to a saving force. Jesus never raises baptism to the level of saving power.

There are many seeming conflicts in scripture, if not true we would have nothing to comment on.

 

And what makes you believe that Paul must have been talking about the first judgement and not the second?

 

1) Ah, I think you mean James, don't you?

2) Ah, Jesus said that. And I thought you believed that Jesus's words trump the rest of the Bible not in red letters.

Mark 16:15-16 (ESV)
[15]And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. [16] Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Yelsew, you might do well to actually read the Bible before you try to discuss what it says.

 

By the description given.

 

What part of that description?

 

1) Ah, I think you mean James, don't you?

2) Ah, Jesus said that. And I thought you believed that Jesus's words trump the rest of the Bible not in red letters.

Mark 16:15-16 (ESV)
[15]And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. [16] Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Yelsew, you might do well to actually read the Bible before you try to discuss what it says. </font>[/QUOTE]Nice of you to point out the apparent discrepancy in the words of Jesus himself.

As you and so many others have done so often on this BBS let's take this literally and make the claim that "Christian doctrine is evolutionary" because in the early part of Jesus' ministry he said that belief brings eternal life, and in the later part of His ministry he said that belief plus baptism brings eternal life. My what a quandary!

Does it matter whether it was Peter or James? The point is their statements conflict with those of Jesus. I stick with Jesus.

Granted that Jesus did say, "believe and be baptised". However, if you drop the "believe" and stick with the baptised, YOU CANNOT BE SAVED no matter how often you get dunked! BAPTISM CANNOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM SAVE A SINGLE HUMAN BEING.

If you drop the Baptised and stick with believing, Believing SAVES every single human being who does...even believing on the name of Jesus saves one.

IT IS FAITH ALONE THROUGH WHICH ONE IS SAVED WHILE GOD'S GRACE PREVAILS.

 

I have never made such a claim and I do not believe such a thing.

 

So then can one lose Salvation?

If one can stop believing, and there is ample scientific evidence that man does stop believing in, things, doctrines, concepts, ideas, etc.; then one can lose salvation if one stops believing in the one who brings salvation.

That is the reason that throughout scriptures, man is warned to "keep the faith baby", don't lose your salvation by losing your faith.

There is also much evidence that no amount of adversity can shake one's faith who wants to retain that faith. Fox's Book of Martyrs is full of such evidence.

Of course one can be baptised, and baptism will save you!.....Right? One can do good works and those good works will save you....right? (TIC)

 

I have never made such a claim and I do not believe such a thing. </font>[/QUOTE]That is not what I said...either!