What do Arminians believe regarding losing one's salvation:?

</font>[/QUOTE]"a judgement upon the return of Jesus"

I don't find that in scripture.

 

That's fine. I'm interested knowing why Paul can't be talking about the judgement of salvation(or damnation which ever name you prefer).

 

Please point out for us where Paul is addressing "Judgment of salvation". This was the scripture you posted is it not?

 

Salvation is based on what is in our hearts.

 

Salvation is based on what is in our hearts. </font>[/QUOTE]Looks to me like Paul is saying that Jesus will, like he did to Nathaniel, know every heart and that no deceipt or corruption will remain hidden in the human heart. Kind of a "forced honesty" if you will, because nothing can escape his "eyes". He is, afterall, omniscient, and sees all, He made us. He knows our innermost parts. This however has naught to do with judgement unto salvation, or 'salvation judgment' as you called it.

 

Matthew 15:15-20 Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us." Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also? "Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

What is in our hearts determines our salvation.

 

You still have not proven your point about Paul's writings, stick to one before you attempt to prove another, even though they may be related.

Tell us where in 1 Cor 4:1-5 Paul is speaking of savation judgement!

 

I was using one to give evidence for the other. Matthew 15:15-20 says that those who are going to hell are going to hell because of what is in their hearts. Therefore if someone's heart is being judged, then it is a judgement unto salvation. 1 Cor 4:1-5's judgement is a judgement of a person's heart: "For that reason, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes; he will bring to light everything that is hidden in darkness and reveal the designs of all hearts."

 

When does this "judgment" take place?

when does salvation take place?

If one is judged here in this physical life, is he also judged after death?

Let's see, Die first, then judgment. Hmmmmm!

The faithful persevere to the end. Hmmmmm!

 

Yelsew,

death is a process that includes our day to day activities. choices. of experiences of evidence.

as such is judgement. it to is a process where we are learning what is correct and incorrect nature of what the image of Christ is.

together they culminate into a final result.

do you actually think that what a man chooses in this existence is forever sealed and no longer changable. we are changing from a state of death into a state of life. a final and definite image whereas all will reach this goal.

the statement referring to not judging till the lord comes means that there could be additional evidence needed to make the correct choice.

dont be hasty to "add or take away" from the truth of God. seeing that truth is non changing.

look around..how much indifference do you see when considering any choice.
much like versions of Gods word.

I dont see how you can agree with anyone seeing that the version that you quote from. "godsword for the nation"
is an adulterated interpretation of one man and further corrupted by the additions of others opinions. I find it highly incorrect in not allowing the reader lattitude in interpretation.

now back to death.....why did jesus say "let the dead bury the dead". because he came from a state of life and entered a state of death.

"death" is the realm where we live.

when the individual realizes this truth (through regeneration). then the judgement begins. 24/7/365

Me2

 

Me2,

You are right, BUT Eternal Life is a choice!

It is the execution of a Judgment of God upon his creation.

What is that final result? Is it that all mankind are redeemed for eternity? OR is it that those who believe the Word of God are redeemed for Eternity? What do the scriptures tell you?

What man chooses during this "natural Lifetime" (120 Years max) determine his destiny! If man chooses to believe in God, in Jesus, Man has eternal life. If man does not choose to believe, but instead passes through death from this natural life not believing in God, God has no obligation to give that man another chance. He ignored the writings of the prophets, and now the apostles, therefore why should God reward him with another chance?

No it means that All judgment resides in the Lord, and not with man. In other words, your judgment of me carries no weight in the divine court of eternal justice, and my judgment of you likewise carries no weight. It is entirely what we each present before the throne of God that determines the judgment we receive. An no it does not mean that there is more "evidence needed".

Explain your accusation!

"godsword for the nation" ?? Does it have another name? I don't recognize that name. What version do you use?

He was referring to the unbelievers burying their own. That the believers are to get on with LIFE.

Speak for yourself, I am among the living! My eternal life began when I accepted God's Holy Word and my faith was established therein. I AM REDEEMED! Praise the Holy Name of Jesus!

 

Yelsew,

"Godsword" is the name of the version of bible you like to cut and paste from. the version I say makes no sense other than to the original translator.

attempting to interpret the bible in a way in which they could comprehend. unfortunately expressing their incapabilities in almost every verse!.

try the KJV or the NIV.. you might change a few of your viewpoints on many subjects.

godsword home page

now as to accusing you of "anything". I think not. Im smarter than that.

the arminian viewpoints you so guardingly hold to is between yourself and your Lord.

arminianism is a proud and self-righteous profanity.

they claim that those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly.

they claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyones will, unless that person lets Him.

that the arminians God lets us down when we need him the most. when Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will.

that the arminians God either cannot or will not meet us on the level where we need him the most. on changing our stubborn will in our greatest need..

Like you say..if they dont have faith upon their death. they are cosigned to an endless torture. even though at some time in their past. they believed.

arminians simple believe that man is capable to acheive Godlike qualities unto themselves.

Total sovereignty above Gods will.

and if they cannot acheive such lofty heights..
God never loved them in the first place..

THEY DIDNT BELIEVE STRONG ENOUGH OR LONG ENOUGH

so you say...well spoken like a proud arminian!.

Me2

 

Let's see, Die first, then judgment. Hmmmmm!

The faithful persevere to the end. Hmmmmm! </font>[/QUOTE]I have no idea where you are going with this one. I probably has to do with your idea of the tribulation.

 

Me2,

Thanks for the web page. That is the first Time I've heard or seen anything about the "Godsword" version. I don't own one, have never before today seen one. Your eagerness to find fault with my faith is completely bogus, you are grasping at straw, and foolishly jumping to conclusions. Knock off the crap!

You certainly have fooled me!

Once again you falsely accuse me of believing something that you cannot prove that I believe. SOOOOOOO, once again I will tell you that I am CHRISTIAN! Non-Hyphenated Christian, not a pigeonholeable Christian, I follow no denominational teaching, no sectarian teaching, no cultic teaching,(therefore I am not Universalist). I align with NO denomination, NO Philosophy, and NO Particular religious congregation or organization. I have no allegience toward any man, therefore I am NOT ARMENIAN, NOT CALVINIST, NOT CATHOLIC, NOT BAPTIST, NOT WESLEYAN, NOT LUTHERAN, etc.

The universalism that you espouse is an open lie. And, My dog's bigger-n-your's!

Your opinion plus $2.50 will buy you a cup of coffee at any Starbuck's in the land.

 

Yelsew,

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Or...

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

back to them antichrists...

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

list every religion you want. Disassociate yourself from every human belief and thought. If you cannot prove that the spirit of Christ is "within you".

Will power is all you’ve got left.

as I have posted before..Will power cant get you Squat…

It’s the spirit of Christ “within you” that counts. It’s His faith that comes from His spirit that holds mens souls.

Not human will power. Nor Human “Faith”…not even yours…

Arminians hold to the notion that they possess some mental power to deny Gods sovereignty or withold God from carrying out his Eternal Plans.

Not even man will stop this from being fulfilled. Or does man possess a greater influential power..hhmm?

well, arminians think so..

another interesting thought…

So that now if your will power wont Get you saved..there seems to be only one alternative solution left. Dare I suggest universal reconciliation.….Oh My.


1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (KJV)


Me2

 

Me2,
Since you say that I am not Christian by inferrance, and since you imply that I am AntiChrist by inferrance, let me tell you who and what Jesus is, and that I believe in Him with all my heart!

Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, come in the flesh to dwell among men, to be the once for all sacrificial Lamb of God slain from the beginning of the world, taking upon himself the Sins of the world. In so doing He singlehandedly justified all mankind by paying the penalty for sin. With sins paid for, and works inadequate to save us, It is faith alone by which God judges mankind. Those with faith are not judged those without faith are judged by their unbelief.

Therefore, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life". "Whosoever" means that any, out of all, who will believe shall be saved. It does not mean that ALL will be saved, but that all who believe will be saved.

True, Adam introduced sin into mankind. True, Jesus brought forth salvation of mankind to all who believe in Him. So, as in one man all die, likewise one man brings life to all who believe. Believing, the root of faith, is the requirement established by God for man's redemption. Believe it or not.

Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.
He will save all who are willing to be saved.
He will not save the unwilling, the unbeliever.
He will not force anyone to believe in him, or Me2, that would have already happened!

Man has but one life in which to believe unto salvation. Salvation is through faith in God, Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit. Faith in God brings life eternal. A search of the scriptures reveals there are no second chances. It is this life or else. No second chances recorded or reported have been given to man, or God would have told us. It is this life or nothing. If you do not believe unto salvation in this life, you will be cast into the lake of fire. Scriptures say so! The lake of fire is called the second death, and no one passes from the second death unto life, else God would have told us so!

Universalism is a LIE! It is open foolishness!
You have oft and repeatedly misinterpreted scripture, a common trait amongst universalists.

 

Yelsew,

wheres your proof...in a book. printed words on paper.

wheres your evidence..your proof of existence.

(maybe his DNA from the "shroud of turin")

everyone can say look up! "Gods in "heaven".
unfortunately he's out there by their reckonings.

Im hearing your "words of faith", but what of your concurring "seen" evidence. proving your statements of your "faith"

while your bible teaches you he's "in" you.
luk 17:21..heavens "in you"
rev 11:19..temple of God "in" heaven

but wait, Me2 says, Yelsews bible states, that Jesus spirit is "in" the believer

eze 11:19... new spirit "within" you
eze 36:26... new spirit will I put "within" you
eze 37:4.... put my spirit "in" you
joh 14:20... ye in me, and i "in" you
joh 15:4.... abide in me, and i "in" you
rom 8:9.... Spirit of God dwell "in" you
rom 8:10... and if Christ be "in" you
rom 8:11... by his spirit that dwells "in" you
2 co 13:5.... Jesus Christ is "in" you
gal 4:19... until Christ be formed "in" you
col 1:27... Christ "in" you, the hope of Glory
1 joh 4:2.... Jesus Christ has come "in" the flesh
1 joh 4:4.... greater is he that is "in" you

and these are blatent statements..."in" you.
but alas its still a book. we still have no physical proof.

unless God actually does comes to us. touching us.

residing "inside" us. how could we explain such an event. the spirit of Jesus is given to us as a free gift. his faith, his knowledge, his power, his life.
we would sound mad.
"God gave me another spirit."
"my old spirit had to die, and be replaced."

yelsew, thats faith being realized.
"unseen" evidence (promise) , becoming "seen" (receiving the promise, the spirit)

thats why God calls this event a mystery.

its a secret that only the believer can witness to.that the believer can keep.

both to those who hold his spirit "within" them, and also for the cursed that cannot believe such an event occurring unless they have evidence.

evidence that can only be received "inside them"

which leads us to only those who professing to such evidence being "inside" them can concur together. having a similar experience. the same knowledge within them.

which I ask you over and over again.

has the spirit of Jesus Christ been given to you?.

You keep saying he came "in his own" flesh. simply saying. "I have no proof right now. but he came 2000 years ago". your bible says so. and thats good enough for you...

well Its not good enough for me. I need proof other than words scribbled on paper. I have to witness this proof for myself. hold the evidence in my hands.

you say.."have faith brother". but wheres your proof that your faith is real?.

wheres your seen evidence that faith should produce?

Ive shown you many statements that your bible is expressing. christ should be "in you". if these statements are true to other christians. it should follow logic that it should be true to you and me also. these faith promises should have following evidence of proof. seen evidence that faith is pointing towards.

you keep saying Christ is coming. Christ is coming soon.

Me2 say. He's Here.

so theres the difference. you and the arminians believe he's out there and will come to us soon.

Me2 says that Christ is "within you"

big difference.

2Co 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is IN YOU, except ye be reprobates?

thats my arguement to you also. either we have a new spirit in us,.. or not.

either Christ Spirit is IN mans flesh,.. or not

big difference

Me2

 

This is true because of the resurrection of Christ. All the dead, saved and lost shall be resurrected in a body prepared for an eternity in heaven or an eternity in the lake of fire.

1 Cor. 15.22 does not say all shall be saved.

The above quote is from Gill. What he says above is in line with the rest of scripture.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

Frogman,

Gill missed the larger plan for mankind. the resurrection of the just and unjust or quick(ened) and dead point to the elect and the judgement and growth of those which God draws to Christ in this age.

As Gill includes the notions of endless torment to Gods message. God immediately becomes partial when we observe him seperating some for reward and others for punishment based on nothing that the creature could avoid.

Did Gill miss this verse?

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

or this..

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

or that Gods creation was made for Christ enjoyment and pleasure?

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

mankind was created "in Christ". placed into death.
and are presently observed as some who are working their salvation out through this image called "in Christ". I see that all of Gods creation is entended to complete this process. But as Gill eludes to...God will not be love to all. and he will be partial. And He will prove himself to be a liar for all to witness.

again Gill misses vital verses. all are gathered together. One big Happy Creation with their God.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Gill wasnt thinking too deep. If Christ destroys death. where are people in death to Go?

Into Christ...

Not some stragglers in heaven and some stragglers in earth (death)

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Gill didnt see Gods Bigger plans for mankind. He saw a childlike version of God only drawing the elect to christ today. not the entire creation throughout later ages to come. that God has full intentions of drawing all men into this image that they were originally intended to become.

signifying that Gods plans are bigger than Gills limited interpretations.


Me2