What Do Matthew 8:22 and Luke 9:60 Teach about Burial?

[Van]

LOL, just read the verse! Or do you not know they burned up animal carcasses in Gehenna?

The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings 23:10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed.​

Thus a donkey burial referred to cremation in Gehenna.

Were animal carcasses burn-up in Gehenna outside the gates of Jerusalem? Yes
Does scripture say the king was cremated? No, but suggests the possibility.
Did I provide proof that the Hebrew word translated "burial" is used to refer to other non-interment means of handling remains, such as cremation? Yes.

Are there other examples? Yes, take a look at Jeremiah 7:32-33. Here bodies are buried in the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, but not interred for they become food for birds.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So this post agrees with my assertion as explained in post 76 and 78. Go figure!!
Lets see, the Hebrew word for burial is used for non-interment means of handling remains, such as cremation.
Thus all the places where "burial" is used does not disallow cremation. Honoring our loved ones with a "Celebration of Life" is just as biblical using a picture of the loved one as with a casket.

False. You do not have any Bible to support that the word is used to support or signify cremation. If you want to argue that Christians should be buried with the burial of a donkey, go right ahead and use Jer. 22:19.

Furthermore, the word as it is used in Jer. 22:19 is used to speak of divine judgment on a very wicked king. Your claim then becomes one of "honoring" your loved one by using a form of burial that God used to judge a very wicked king.

What's even more telling is the fallacious notion that because a word modified by a specific noun is used to signify something in one passage, that same word itself without being modified by that same noun can still mean elsewhere the same thing as it did in the passage where it was modified by that noun.

You have to prove that it means the same thing without being modified by that noun--you do not just get to declare that it does or can do so.

 

[CalTech]

No, the falsity of your argument was your original claim that the Hebrew word translated "burial" is used in the text to refer to cremation.

First, you did not prove anything about that verse meaning cremation. Not a single commentator says that Jehoiakim was cremated. Not one.

Second, the Hebrew word is not used alone in that verse. It is the noun in construct with the Hebrew noun for donkey. The word itself does not signify cremation.

I see also that you changed your tune (without my catching it earlier) by adding "(or other non-interment means of handling remains)". Apparently, even you now see the folly of your claim that Jehoiakim was "cremated" based on merely the occurrence of that Hebrew word.

The original claim in #63 was the following: "LOL, in Jeremiah 22:19 the Hebrew word translated "burial" is used to refer to cremation in Gehenna." That same claim was made in #65, 67, 70, 72, and 74. It was then changed in #76 and 78.

Greetings,

Very well spoken of. How do they get "burial" in Hebrew to mean "cremation"?

I only have a Strong's Concordance, it reveal's this for the word "buried" in Hebrew:

"Jer 22:19 He shall be buriedH6912 with the burialH6900 of an ass,H2543 drawnH5498 and cast forthH7993 beyondH4480 H1973 the gatesH8179 of Jerusalem.H3389"

Strong's meaning in Hebrew:
H6912
קבר
qâbar
kaw-bar'
A primitive root; to inter: - X in any wise, bury (-ier).


H6900
קברה קבוּרה
qebûrâh qebûrâh
keb-oo-raw', keb-oo-raw'
Feminine passive participle of H6912; sepulture; (concretely) a sepulchre: - burial, burying place, grave, sepulchre.


From whence do they come up with the meaning of "cremation" within the Hebrew?????/

It is just NOT there.......very sad to mis-handle the Word of the Lord in such a manner to "win" an argument.

The Lord bless you....
In His Love....

 

[CalTech]

False. You do not have any Bible to support that the word is used to support or signify cremation. If you want to argue that Christians should be buried with the burial of a donkey, go right ahead and use Jer. 22:19.

Furthermore, the word as it is used in Jer. 22:19 is used to speak of divine judgment on a very wicked king. Your claim then becomes one of "honoring" your loved one by using a form of burial that God used to judge a very wicked king.

What's even more telling is the fallacious notion that because a word modified by a specific noun is used to signify something in one passage, that same word itself without being modified by that same noun can still mean elsewhere the same thing as it did in the passage where it was modified by that noun.

You have to prove that it means the same thing without being modified by that noun--you do not just get to declare that it does or can do so.

Greetings,

I know what you are up against, they tried to use the same argument with me using Lot's wife, Sodom and Gomorrah, and I informed them, that those were of "judgement's by God," but they ignored my stance.

The Lord bless you....
In His Love....

 

[Salty]

False. You do not have any Bible to support that the word is used to support or signify cremation. If you want to argue that Christians should be buried with the burial of a donkey, go right ahead and use Jer. 22:19. ....

Absolutely disagree with you

 

[Van]

False. You do not have any Bible to support that the word is used to support or signify cremation. If you want to argue that Christians should be buried with the burial of a donkey, go right ahead and use Jer. 22:19.

Furthermore, the word as it is used in Jer. 22:19 is used to speak of divine judgment on a very wicked king. Your claim then becomes one of "honoring" your loved one by using a form of burial that God used to judge a very wicked king.

What's even more telling is the fallacious notion that because a word modified by a specific noun is used to signify something in one passage, that same word itself without being modified by that same noun can still mean elsewhere the same thing as it did in the passage where it was modified by that noun.

You have to prove that it means the same thing without being modified by that noun--you do not just get to declare that it does or can do so.

Did I say I want Christians to be buried with the burial of a donkey? No. So this guy is allowed to post falsehood. Pathetic.

Were animal carcasses burn-up in Gehenna outside the gates of Jerusalem? Yes
Does scripture say the king was cremated? No, but suggests the possibility.
Did I provide proof that the Hebrew word translated "burial" is used to refer to other non-interment means of handling remains, such as cremation? Yes.

Are there other examples? Yes, take a look at Jeremiah 7:32-33. Here bodies are buried in the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, but not interred for they become food for birds.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Were animal carcasses burn-up in Gehenna outside the gates of Jerusalem? Yes
Does scripture say the king was cremated? No, but suggests the possibility.
Did I provide proof that the Hebrew word translated "burial" is used to refer to other non-interment means of handling remains, such as cremation? Yes.

Are there other examples? Yes, take a look at Jeremiah 7:32-33. Here bodies are buried in the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, but not interred for they become food for birds.

You did not prove that the word itself ever refers to cremation. Prove that the word itself refers to cremation.

 

[CalTech]

Absolutely disagree with you

Greetings,

Well if you disagree, then where is the scripture's to support your stance?
Do you have any?
How sad........

IN His Love....

 

[CalTech]

You did not prove that the word itself ever refers to cremation. Prove that the word itself refers to cremation.

Greetings,

He won't, that is just the way they deal with truth......then turn and attack you without any God given authority.

It is all very sad, and give's no glory to the Name of the Lord......

The Lord bless you.....
In His Love...

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Bottom line: the Hebrew word for "burial" in Scripture never means "cremation" anywhere in Scripture, and it is not used anywhere in Scripture with any other words to speak of cremation. No lexical sources support such a faulty handling of Scripture. None.

 

[Van]

You did not prove that the word itself ever refers to cremation. Prove that the word itself refers to cremation.

Prove it does not!!!!! You are long on false claims, and demands for others to refute your nonsense.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

BDB, a standard Hebrew lexicon, treats all 14 occurrences in Scripture of the Hebrew word "burial." The word does not mean "cremation" in any of those 14 occurrences:

Brown-Driver-Briggs
[קְבֻרָה], and (4 t.) קְבוּרָה noun feminine grave, burial; — absolute קְבוּרָה Isaiah 14:20 2t.; construct קְבוּרֵת Jeremiah 22:19, קְבֻרַת Genesis 35:20 +; suffix קְבֻרָתוֺ Deuteronomy 34:6 +; —
1 grave> Genesis 35:20 (twice in verse); Genesis 47:30; Deuteronomy 34:6; 1 Samuel 10:2; 2 Kings 9:28; 2 Kings 21:26; 2 Kings 23:30; Ezekiel 32:23,24; ׳שְׂדֵה הַקּ2Chronicles 26:23,

2 burial, Isaiah 14:20; Ecclesiastes 6:3; קְבוּרַת חֲמוֺר Jeremiah 22:19.

קֳבָתָהּ see קֵבָה.


From biblehub.com) Strong's Hebrew: 6900. קְבוּרָה (qeburah) -- a grave, burial

 

[JonC]

BDB, a standard Hebrew lexicon, treats all 14 occurrences in Scripture of the Hebrew word "burial." The word does not mean "cremation" in any of those 14 occurrences:

Brown-Driver-Briggs
[קְבֻרָה], and (4 t.) קְבוּרָה noun feminine grave, burial; — absolute קְבוּרָה Isaiah 14:20 2t.; construct קְבוּרֵת Jeremiah 22:19, קְבֻרַת Genesis 35:20 +; suffix קְבֻרָתוֺ Deuteronomy 34:6 +; —
1 grave> Genesis 35:20 (twice in verse); Genesis 47:30; Deuteronomy 34:6; 1 Samuel 10:2; 2 Kings 9:28; 2 Kings 21:26; 2 Kings 23:30; Ezekiel 32:23,24; ׳שְׂדֵה הַקּ2Chronicles 26:23,

2 burial, Isaiah 14:20; Ecclesiastes 6:3; קְבוּרַת חֲמוֺר Jeremiah 22:19.

קֳבָתָהּ see קֵבָה.


From biblehub.com) Strong's Hebrew: 6900. קְבוּרָה (qeburah) -- a grave, burial

In the NT "bury" also refers to the burial rites (primarily the burial rites). The body was prepared and placed in a tomb. But "burial" lasted several days.

Systematic Theology uses Biblical Theology but also incorporates extra-biblical references (in this case, what is known about first century Jewish burials).

 

[Van]

SMA claims burial always means interment but scripture more accurately understood indicates the word can refer to other means of handling remains.

Does anyone think they interred the carcasses of donkeys? Or those that become food for birds.

 

[Van]

I see it has been claimed by SMA that the word translated burial (in the phrase donkey's burial) somehow refers to something other than the place of burial. Thus grave or tomb or other location. Where were donkeys buried outside Jerusalem? Gehenna?
And how were those bodies disposed of? Cremation?

Never mind the other Hebrew word translated "buried" in the verse. This word appears over 130 times in the OT.

 

[Van]

What is the actual basis of the myth that burial in a coffin in the ground is the proscribed method of handling the remains of the deceased Christian?

The spiritual Gehenna, the lake of fire, is where the lost are consigned. But this happens after the lost's bodies are resurrected by the power of God. Thus to think the status of their physical bodies before they are resurrected somehow affects the outcome as declared by God is simply to deny the power of God.

And the same reasoning also applies to the physical remains of believers. Their spiritual entity (soul/spirit) is in heaven with Christ. No matter where or how the physical remains are distributed on earth, God will raise their "glorified bodies" when Christ returns.

Thus, the appeal is not based on scripture but on tradition, and as good stewards another tradition is to spend God's resources wisely.

 

[JonC]

What is the actual basis of the myth that burial in a coffin in the ground is the proscribed method of handling the remains of the deceased Christian?

The spiritual Gehenna, the lake of fire, is where the lost are consigned. But this happens after the lost's bodies are resurrected by the power of God. Thus to think the status of their physical bodies before they are resurrected somehow affects the outcome as declared by God is simply to deny the power of God.

And the same reasoning also applies to the physical remains of believers. Their spiritual entity (soul/spirit) is in heaven with Christ. No matter where or how the physical remains are distributed on earth, God will raise their "glorified bodies" when Christ returns.

Thus, the appeal is not based on scripture but on tradition, and as good stewards another tradition is to spend God's resources wisely.

The first centuries Jews bury in a tomb and later washed and removed the bones.

The irony is our embalming, caskets and vaults are designed to prevent as much as possible man returning to dust. Cremation, however, takes care of that issue rather quickly.

 

[CalTech]

Unbelievable............such worthless information.....

 

[JonC]

Unbelievable............such worthless information.....

It is telling that on a forum discussing burial in Scripture you consider the Hebrew method of burial (to include Christ's burial) as "worthless information".

 

[Lodic]

Within the limits of my present understanding of Scripture, I cannot offer you any direct statements that answer your question or give details about "what the consequences are if His followers do not bury the bodies of our loved ones?"

Having said that, God does provide revelation that speaks of His intense displeasure with people who burned the bones of another human to lime:

Amos 2:1 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:

2 But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kirioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:

3 And I will cut off the judge from the midst thereof, and will slay all the princes thereof with him, saith the Lord.

This passage speaks of fierce divine judgment on Moab because of what they did in that respect (and in their other transgressions).

More importantly, I would urge you not to adopt the mindset of what will happen to me if I do what is contrary to what God has said, etc. Those whose hearts are completely toward God will be sensitive to His leading through whatever ways He makes known His mind.

What Jesus said in Matt. 8:22 and Luke 9:60 matters.

While I still disagree with your conclusions, your response helps me understand where you are coming from. You already know my stance, so I am content to part as brothers in Christ who disagree on some topics. Take care.