What do members of the BB hold as separating them from Papists?

[SovereignGrace]

Darrell, I'm not going to go point by point. I get to the heart of the matter. Makes for shorter posts and more likely to be read.

Anyone read Darrell's tomes?




Anyone?



Anyone?



If you would like me to address a specific point of your argument, state it in less than two hundred words, and I will be happy to engage you.

Mercifully, I can't read his posts. He is destroying this place.

 

[Darrell C]

Daniel also prophesied about the church of Christ in his age. Perhaps the best and most noted prophecy by Daniel concerning the church deals with the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2:31-35).

Okay, just to clarify again, the poster wants to show that Daniel is
"prophesying about the Church."

Let's test that assertion:

Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Where is the Church?

Where is the Church Age?

What we see here is the Head of the Church.

And the only reason we know that is due to the Revelation of the New Testament. We know, now, that Christ would build His Church. We know, now, that Christ is the Son of God Who judged these nations.

We were told in the previous portion of this eisegetically constructed nightmare that...

1. The word "mountain" is to be understood in the sense of government; and this government of the Lord's House, his church, is to be exalted above all other institutions.

Folks, I want you to understand what this fellow is teaching here: that the Church is to be exalted above all other institutions. It is ascribing authority to the Church rather than the Head, to Whom it belongs.

Is that what the Prophecy teaches?

Since when does God exalt the Church?

Who is exalted in Prophecy?


Revelation 19:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


Now, let's look at the proof-text again (and for the record I am using the poster's supplied proof-texts as they were given)...


Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Now the poster's statement here:

1. The word "mountain" is to be understood in the sense of government; and this government of the Lord's House, his church, is to be exalted above all other institutions.

It is not the Church in view here, though one desperately try to find it. In view is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is the Stone cut out without hands.

Yet this fellow sees the Church in view.

And isn't that interesting.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Please notice the following facts about the passage;

1. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream in which he saw a great image with a head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, and legs of iron and feet of part iron and clay.

2. He saw a stone, cut out without hands, strike the image upon its feet and destroy it; the stone went on to become a great mountain filling the earth.

3. The king was troubled about the dream, but was unable to recall it.

It was at this point that Daniel came upon the scene, the prophet was able to interpret the dream for the King.
Please notice the following facts in the interpretation by Daniel:

1. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he, as king of Babylon, was the head of gold and after him would arise another kingdom inferior to his kingdom (cf. v. 39). Then a third kingdom would arise followed by a fourth (cf. v. 40).

So far so good...

2. Since the stone was to strike the image in his feet, and since the feet represent the fourth kingdom, it follows that the kingdom of God was to be set up during the existence of the fourth kingdom. Please observe verse 44 in this connection, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed" (Dan. 2:44).

This too can be seen as correct, for indeed the Kingdom of God was established in a way unfamiliar to those who would inherit it.

But, if we make that simply a spiritual Kingdom, rather than make the distinction which is that a new ministry of God begins, then once again we find ourselves with a contradiction:


Luke 17:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


So are we to think that the spiritual rule and reign of God in the hearts of believers... didn't begin until Christ came?

Or do we see the Testimony of the Word of God as indicating that God is Sovereign in the lives of those that trust in Him?

You choose, folks.

What we can say is that the Prophecy of the proof-texts offered do nothing to support an attempt to show the Church or the Church Age prophesied in the Old Testament.

And this is just one of the issues which this fellow, nor his partners in crime will address, which is that the New Testament tells us that specifically:


Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


This, plus multiple passages which make it clear that the Gospel, the very foundation of the Church...was a mystery. It was hidden. It was not revealed unto men.

Gentile Inclusion...a mystery as well.

So unless we want to create two Peoples of God on the eternal level, then we are forced to admit that the Church Age was a Mystery not understood by men.

Apparently...it is still not understood in certain camps.

This issue has been raised numerous times, and not the first person has even bothered to address it...not even once.

And by the way, my A-millennial brethren, who applaud this kind of pseudo exegesis...you're welcome. This should help you in your attempts to deny the Millennial Kingdom. An understanding that the argument that the Old Testament Prophesied in specificity the Church or the Church Age should help you when you levy the false argument about those who create Two Peoples of God.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

It is not too difficult to identify the kingdoms in the prophecy because we have a definite starting point, please observe the following facts in this regard:

1. Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar, king, app. 600 B.C. The kingdom fell about 536 B.C. "Represented by the head of gold."

2. Medo-Persia: Established by Cyrus, king of Persia, and Darius, king of Media, fell about 330 B.C. "Represented by the breast and arms of silver."

3. Macedonia (Greek Empire): Established by Alexander the Great. Divided among his generals about 323 B.C. "Represented by the belly and thighs of brass."

4. Roman Empire: Established as a world empire by Octavius Caesar about 30 B.C. "Represented by legs of iron, and feet of iron and clay."

I'm surprised...no mention of Mesopotamia.

I would think at least an honorable mention would be made for what this fellow calls the most important civilization of wolrd history.

Other than that, I have no issues with what is stated here. Just curious as to what book this was copied from.

"In the days of these kings, " therefore refers to a time when Rome ruled the world, "And smote the image upon its feet" signifies that the event would definitely occur during the reign of the fourth kingdom (i.e., Rome).

Don't have a problem with this interpretation either. We're on a roll. How many facts can we get through before finding something questionable?

The New Testament begins its story while Caesar still ruled the world. "In those days came John the Baptist" (Matt. 3:1,2). In what days? "In the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Luke 3:1,2).

Summing up the prophecy of Daniel we notice the following five facts about the kingdom he foretold would come in the future:

1. It was to be established during the Roman Empire. And in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar John came saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Luke 3:1-6; Matt. 3:1-3).

2. This kingdom is to be established by the Lord. There is a sense in which all earthly kingdoms never were. This kingdom (the church) was established by the Lord, in person, present on the Earth, and is governed by him alone (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 1:20-23).

Point 1 is fine, but point 2 is a little misleading. None of us would deny the Lord God is Sovereign over His Church.

But how does this establish the premise this post was meant to address?

How does this see the Prophecy of Daniel and Micah fulfilled at the time of the First Advent?

It doesn't.

How does it show the Church or the Church Age in the Old Testament?

It doesn't.

How does it fulfill this Prophecy...


Revelation 11:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


...?

It doesn't.

Hey, fellas...this Prophecy is Post Cross and Post Pentecost.

Think about that, okay?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

3. The kingdom to be set up by the God of heaven was to supplant all other kingdoms in that it is to become the last and final world power. According to Daniel's prophecy there will never be another earthly kingdom with world-wide dominion; that distinction indeed belongs to the kingdom of God.

This is why we rely on the Whole Counsel of God's Word.

Again, another Prophecy which is Post-Cross and Post-Pentecost:


Revelation 17:7-14

King James Version (KJV)

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Kind of destroys the presentation of a view that sees the "Mountain" of the Proof-texts as the final mountain of Prophecy.

These mountains do indeed represent governing bodies, we call them Empires.

Five are Fallen: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.

One is: Rome.

And the other is not yet come: the final empire of Revelation's events. That which will arise in the Tribulation, and will be the "mountain" that Antichrist governs.

Remember, this is Post-Cross and Post-Pentecost.

The final mountain has not yet come.

The mountain presented as the government in which the Kingdom will be established in is no longer, and we still await for this Prophecy to be fulfilled.


Continued...

 

[kyredneck]

Aaron said:

.....Anyone read Darrell's tomes?

Anyone?

Anyone?.....

I've placed him on ignore. First/only in my six years here.

Mercifully, I can't read his posts. He is destroying this place.

Nah, you give him too much credit and not enough credit to BB public opinion.

Have you put him on ignore? It works right nicely. No more incessant scrolling, it's like he's not even there.

 

[Darrell C]

4. This kingdom will never be destroyed. The kingdom Jesus built (i.e., his church), is to continue to the end of the world. Jesus is king in his kingdom now, Head of his Church now, and will reign until the last enemy (i.e. death) is overthrown (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Heb. 12:28).

Agree completely.

How does that support the premise of the post?

It doesn't.

5. The kingdom described by Daniel was to have a small beginning and later fill all the earth. Jesus spoke of his Kingdom as having a small beginning like the mustard seed (Matt. 13:31,32); he also refers to it as leaven in Matthew 13:33.

I wonder if our A-millennial brethren actually understood much of what was said in this post, which is contradictory to their own views. Hilarious, really, while at the same time tragic.

Anyway, while we can understand the point is sound at it's basest level, and can be confirmed in the New Testament, where do we see that here...


Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

...?

How is that relevant to the Church or Church Age being prophesied in this text?

And just to remind you guys, the point in view centers on the distinction between the Church Age and the former dispensations.

Finally, Isaiah prophesied that the Lord's House or his Kingdom would begin in the last days and the law would go forth from the city of Jerusalem (Isa. 2:2-4; Lk. 24:47).

And Isaiah can be trusted.

This presentation, on the other hand...cannot be.

Explain why Scripture states there will be a literal Kingdom ruled by Christ on this earth, where there will be peace among nations, yet you feel that is already fulfilled?

We already saw "the Law going forth from Jerusalem (as well as the Word of God)" reduced to a spiritualized application that disregards Prophecy as a whole.

Here are the conditions of that Kingdom...


Zechariah 14:16-21

King James Version (KJV)

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

The Law went forth from Jerusalem (Acts 2:1-38).

Another vague reference which clearly present the multiple fulfillments seen in Prophecy.


Acts 2:16-20

King James Version (KJV)

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:


And I will point out this is not Post-Pentecost, lol.

It is the very Day of the most important Pentecost we know of at this point.

The reason I mention that, fellas, is because we see The Revelation of Jesus Christ...comes after this fulfillment.

So kind of hard to make the assertion that the Mountain of Isaiah 2 is exclusively God's Kingdom which is prophesied to come.

This was the beginning of the Lord's Church, the establishment of Messiah's Kingdom, in the days of the Roman Kings as prophesied by Daniel (Acts 2:1-4; 11:15).

Agreed.

But you still have not presented a passage that shows the Church in Old Testament Prophesy.

The arguments offered have at their root the denial of differing ministries of God through the Ages. The Church was not established until Pentecost.

And it is this kind of nonsense that allows for that error to remain the views of those that do not take the time to study all of Prophecy.

This is certainly an improvement to stalking.

Keep up the good work!




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

screwed up the edit

What was that somebody said about what the Public might think?

lol


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you believe that if one blesses the Jews, then he is blessed?

I believe that someone is getting desperate to argue a point no-one has brought up.

You will never accomplish anything trying to discredit Systematic Theologies.

Try actually arguing the points that are actually raised.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The similarity is: Their demigod is the pope; the demigod of dispensationalists is the doctrine of John Nelson Darby and Cyrus I. Scofield!

Typical.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, I'm not going to go point by point.

You say this like this is a revelation. lol

No kidding Aaron?

If you would ever address any point raised to you...that would be a marked improvement.

I get to the heart of the matter.

lol

Makes for shorter posts and more likely to be read.

And that is what is important to you and your buddies...that someone cares what it is you have to say.

Well, guess what...no-one should care what we have to say, but what the Word of God has to say.

That is the primary problem with you and your friends.

So instead of worrying yourself about being accepted, how about worrying that doctrine you have embraced has some issues? You would come to that realization if you would just address the points and Scripture provided.

Anyone read Darrell's tomes?




Anyone?



Anyone?

You do.

If you would like me to address a specific point of your argument,

lol

Hilarious.

state it in less than two hundred words, and I will be happy to engage you.

lol

Hilarious.

Sorry, Aaron, you don't set the conditions for discussion, nor how a discussion is going to go.

If you were "happy to engage" you would have done that by now.

The points are there for you to pick from, try addressing one of them. I am not going to keep addressing the same errors. I have done that in my last two posts to you and you have simply reiterated the same weak arguments. You did not quote me once, and we both know why.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Mercifully, I can't read his posts. He is destroying this place.

Destroying your liberty to post without repercussion, maybe. That is what bothers you.

Destroying this place? lol

Because I actually debate on a debate forum?

Hilarious. But if that makes you feel better, my friend, so be it.

Perhaps if you had a larger vision than a country club where people can spout vague nonsense without the need to address those who challenge them...

Wee?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I've placed him on ignore. First/only in my six years here.



Nah, you give him too much credit and not enough credit to BB public opinion.

Have you put him on ignore? It works right nicely. No more incessant scrolling, it's like he's not even there.

That's right, put me on ignore.

Just keep in mind I still have complete liberty to address who I choose.

And again, Facebook might be something to check into. Nice short posts, little meditation on the Word of God required, and definitely a place where those who are simply seeking to socially network go.

And your words ring a bit hollow there, my friend, seeing here you are again, once again complaining about my posts. lol


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Now, about out of time, but for those of you not reading the responses to the post you applauded, understand, it (the post you applauded) stands in direct contrast, even as sloppy as it was...to your own views, lol.

Which establishes that truth is set aside for the benefit of personal feelings.

That is why your doctrine is so easy to expose as erroneous.

You guys just make it far easier for your antagonist than you should.


God bless.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I've placed him on ignore. First/only in my six years here.



Nah, you give him too much credit and not enough credit to BB public opinion.

Have you put him on ignore? It works right nicely. No more incessant scrolling, it's like he's not even there.

I have him on ignore, too. Also, you can put moderators on ignore, too. That alone makes it worth the format change.

 

[Darrell C]

I have him on ignore, too. Also, you can put moderators on ignore, too. That alone makes it worth the format change.

lol

But weren't you already...ignoring the Moderators?



God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

I have him on ignore, too.....

I suspect many have and I expect the new admin to eventually recognize his tactic of smothering threads with gibberish, especially if folks are complaining.

 

[Darrell C]

I suspect many have and I expect the new admin to eventually recognize his tactic of smothering threads with gibberish, especially if folks are complaining.

Hey, great minds think alike!

I too am hoping that Admin will recognize what is going on.




God bless.

 

[Aaron]

I believe that someone is getting desperate to argue a point no-one has brought up.

You will never accomplish anything trying to discredit Systematic Theologies.

Try actually arguing the points that are actually raised.


God bless.

Hey look! A short post!

I believe I was asked if I thought one held superstitious notions. This was one of my replies to that question. I don't remember to whom it was addressed. But, since you brought it up, I'll pose the question to you: Do you believe that if one blesses the Jews, then he is blessed?

 

[InTheLight]

I've placed him on ignore. First/only in my six years here.

He's the favorite to be the first one back on my Ignore List. Leading by a large margin.