What do these men have in common?

[npetreley]

You are equating "good" with righteous. They are not the same. Man can do no "good" to attain salvation...buy man can do good works. Feeding the poor and taking care of the needy are deemed "good" in Scripture, and there are lost people who do just that. They are not righteous for doing those, however. If they are doing those things to earn salvation, their righteousness are as filthy rags before God. The saved and lost will BOTH be judged on the things they did in the body...both GOOD and BAD.

You are missing the point. If you (or any free-willer) denies total depravity because men can do (civil) good, then you are arguing from a semi-pelagian viewpoint.

 

[webdog]

You are missing the point. If you (or any free-willer) denies total depravity because men can do (civil) good, then you are arguing from a semi-pelagian viewpoint.

I think it boils down to an issue of semantics using the phrase "total depravity". The way both sides use this phrase determines a semi-pelagian...not the phrase in itself.