I agree. His Pastor didn't agree. His Pastor thought the increase should be gross receipts of his Chiropractic practice.
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What Do You Base The Tithe On?
- Thread starter saturneptune
- Start date
I agree. His Pastor didn't agree. His Pastor thought the increase should be gross receipts of his Chiropractic practice.
YES. We agree on something. :thumbsup:
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
While there is no "command" to tithe, there is a definite expectation of the Christian giving to the cause of the church, and the ministry of the gospel. Too often, Christians point to the lack of such a command as an excuse not to give anything, much less the equivalent of the Old Testament command to give ten percent.
Paul came as close to a command as possible without actually making it one, when he wrote to the church at Corinth ...
It is not optional, either, to give to your own local church. I know most here who are defending their view that ten percent is not required nonetheless give something, perhaps even a substantial amount, of their income to support their church. What I tire of is the excuses made for not giving the perfectly reasonable amount of ten percent when the reality is, those making those excuses aren't giving anything at all. Though the view is correct from the theological perspective of not being commanded, it is no less selfish, mercenary and greedy for its biblical accuracy. If that person is willing to take up the pastor's time on Sunday morning, take advantage of the adult and children's Bible study materials that are afforded their family, perhaps go to the pastor or one of the associates for counseling or advise during times of crisis, use the church facilities and personnel for weddings, funerals, baptisms and social fellowship, then they should be willing to part with some of those funds God has provided them through their able-bodied productivity during the rest of the week.
It's perfectly understandable if they have some difficult financial times and have to temporarily cut back on giving, but if they constantly experience "difficult financial times" to the extent they can't return at some point to giving ten percent, perhaps they need to avail themselves of those pastoral services yet again, this time to learn how to budget their income.
That money isn't yours. It's His. He's letting you use it. The least you can do is give some of it to your local church to support its ministries, and ten percent is more than reasonable. It's downright cheap at the price.
Paul came as close to a command as possible without actually making it one, when he wrote to the church at Corinth ...
1 Corinthians 16, NASB
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.
You see the word "directed." It is the Greek diatasso and means "to arrange, appoint, ordain, prescribe, give order." The collection being taken among the Gentile churches for the Jerusalem church was not something that was considered optional. The saints in Israel were starving, and the work of the church there severely hindered, as its members were being cut off from friends, family and employers simply because they dared belief Jesus was the Messiah. Paul was expecting every church to give under those circumstances, even Macedonia, which was poor as the proverbial church mouse, though he was willing to forgive them if they proved unable. Nonetheless, they overwhelmed him with their generosity, given out of their poverty.1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.
It is not optional, either, to give to your own local church. I know most here who are defending their view that ten percent is not required nonetheless give something, perhaps even a substantial amount, of their income to support their church. What I tire of is the excuses made for not giving the perfectly reasonable amount of ten percent when the reality is, those making those excuses aren't giving anything at all. Though the view is correct from the theological perspective of not being commanded, it is no less selfish, mercenary and greedy for its biblical accuracy. If that person is willing to take up the pastor's time on Sunday morning, take advantage of the adult and children's Bible study materials that are afforded their family, perhaps go to the pastor or one of the associates for counseling or advise during times of crisis, use the church facilities and personnel for weddings, funerals, baptisms and social fellowship, then they should be willing to part with some of those funds God has provided them through their able-bodied productivity during the rest of the week.
It's perfectly understandable if they have some difficult financial times and have to temporarily cut back on giving, but if they constantly experience "difficult financial times" to the extent they can't return at some point to giving ten percent, perhaps they need to avail themselves of those pastoral services yet again, this time to learn how to budget their income.
That money isn't yours. It's His. He's letting you use it. The least you can do is give some of it to your local church to support its ministries, and ten percent is more than reasonable. It's downright cheap at the price.
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Just a quick question as far as what missionaries do?
If your church supports (directly not through the convention) missionaries, does that missionary return a portion as giving/tithe to his "home" church?
If your church is SBC, which supports missions through a programmed giving, does the missionary return a portion as giving/tithe to the cooperative program or "home" church?
I have no doubt that Paul gave to the Jerusalem church, though I don't recall the Scriptures making any account of his own giving practice.
If your church supports (directly not through the convention) missionaries, does that missionary return a portion as giving/tithe to his "home" church?
If your church is SBC, which supports missions through a programmed giving, does the missionary return a portion as giving/tithe to the cooperative program or "home" church?
I have no doubt that Paul gave to the Jerusalem church, though I don't recall the Scriptures making any account of his own giving practice.
I struggle in giving to the local church if the local church uses 75-80% of my offering to pay a couple salaries and have a nice facility while those within the church struggle. Then there are those called to missions who have e to scrape together through fundraisers church to church for months just to obey their calling. The modern church has become a glorified country club in many ways. I would much rather give the majority of my money in anonymous gift cards to grocery stores and to help these missionaries the church leaves to fend for themselves.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Ours is an SBC church, but the missionaries sent through Baptist Missions both domestically and internationally do faithfully tithe back to us as their home church.
Well, sorry ... obviously I already answered that question without reading ahead.
I don't believe they did. I would find it difficult to believe he didn't give generously out of what was given him, however.
While I agree that would be grossly unfair, are you certain that is what the church is doing? Do you get a copy of the yearly budget and, as a congregation, vote on it? If not, there are some seriously wrong-headed practices going on at your church. At my church, salaries for pastoral and administrative personnel amount to less than 12% of the budget. There are buildings and grounds expenses, and we have some debt to retire, though we have always managed to pay off debt years earlier than required. The vast majority of our budget goes to local ministries such as food pantries, shelters for homeless and victims of domestic violence, pre-school programs at several sites around the metro Kansas City area, as well as the SBC North American and International Missions Boards. For your church, I'd make certain I'm getting a look at the budget, if I were you.
Most missions organizations require some fundraising by their missionaries, regardless of how much support the organization gives. There are missions organizations that require the missionaries to raise nearly all of their own support. Personally, I find that troubling. What is the missions organization doing then, if not living off the desires of those who want to go out into the world and serve? This is one reason I prefer the SBC way of doing things. The missionaries can concentrate on ministry, and not finances.
That may be true of some, and a small minority at that. I don't believe it can be said of the majority of U.S. churches, and to paint them all with such a broad brushstroke is a disservice to the large number of churches that serve the cause of Christ.
I with you :thumbsup:
Our church is most certainly not perfect and it's very staff-heavy but I love how they deal with missionaries: They send out missionaries from our own church and give them their full support. That way there is no fundraising. We do have a few missionaries that we have also picked up as time has gone on and we don't fund them fully because they already had some funding in place but we want to help equip them to be able to fully work in the ministry and not in fundraising.
Tom Butler
New Member
I think we would generally agree that our giving should be proportional to our income. Paul used the term in I Cor 16:2 "as God has prospered you..." which suggests proportional giving.
The question up for discussion, of course, is not whether we give, but how much. To put it another way, what portion of our income should we give to the Lord's storehouse, which I take to be the local church.
Since the argument against tithing is mainly that it is principle of Old Testament Law, and we're not under the law but grace, can we find an answer to the question in the New Testament.
I suggest two verses to consider. Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23. They are the words of Jesus, essentially in the same setting:
Here, Jesus is not criticizing the Pharisees for tithing. In fact, these Pharisees were meticilous about tithing. They counted everything, even the mint and cummin, and tithed on it.
Jesus was criticizing them for their lack of love for others, and the neglect of justice.
The key phrase here is you should have practiced the latter.
Without question, Jesus endorsed the tithe has the giving principle.
Some may argue that the New Testament era had not yet begun, so the era of grace had not yet arrived, and the Jews were still under the law (thus obligated to tithe.
I just can't get away from Jesus own words about tithing. And nothing I can find in the New Testament clearly negates the tithe as a giving principle.
The question up for discussion, of course, is not whether we give, but how much. To put it another way, what portion of our income should we give to the Lord's storehouse, which I take to be the local church.
Since the argument against tithing is mainly that it is principle of Old Testament Law, and we're not under the law but grace, can we find an answer to the question in the New Testament.
I suggest two verses to consider. Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23. They are the words of Jesus, essentially in the same setting:
Here, Jesus is not criticizing the Pharisees for tithing. In fact, these Pharisees were meticilous about tithing. They counted everything, even the mint and cummin, and tithed on it.
Jesus was criticizing them for their lack of love for others, and the neglect of justice.
The key phrase here is you should have practiced the latter.
Without question, Jesus endorsed the tithe has the giving principle.
Some may argue that the New Testament era had not yet begun, so the era of grace had not yet arrived, and the Jews were still under the law (thus obligated to tithe.
I just can't get away from Jesus own words about tithing. And nothing I can find in the New Testament clearly negates the tithe as a giving principle.
Jesus was also addressing Jews under the law pre death and resurrection. In context that does not apply to the church.
While I hold to the tithe I agree with web on this one.
saturneptune
New Member
I really like the way you put that. Not that I know your figures, but my guess is that a joyful heart in appreciation for how the Lord has increased us, greatly exceeds the burden from the OT of 10%. A demand or burden is never joyful. Thanks for the post.
Tom Butler
New Member
I understand. This is the strongest argument I've heard against tithing.
But I have a problem. The argument is based on the view that tithing is an Old Testament principle and is not for the church. My problem is that I hold that Jesus established His church during his earthly ministry--prior to His death and resurrection.
If that be the case, then Jesus endorsed the tithe AFTER he established His church, not before the so-called "church age" began.
I do understand that God wants us to give out of a willing heart and not out of obligation. But if we do buy into the idea of proportional giving, then we do have some guidance about what is mean by "as God has prospered you...."
The tithe predates the law.
The law is not abrogated anyway- only the ceremonial parts of it. The civil parts of it never applied outside the land of Israel anyway (like taking eggs from a wild bird's nest).
Gross income because I cannot liquify non-liquid assets.
The best book I have read on the subject is You Mean I Don't Have to Tithe?: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving by David A. Croteau He has done an excellent job of showing its history and how many have tried to apply it to the church.
He did his dissertation on the subject which can be downloaded for free at http://works.bepress.com/david_croteau/
He did his dissertation on the subject which can be downloaded for free at http://works.bepress.com/david_croteau/
This pre dates the ceremonial and judicial law which most on BB do not understand to begin with.
Gen14
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Hebrews 7
King James Version (KJV)
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Gen14
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Hebrews 7
King James Version (KJV)
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
To those who want to hold to Old Testament "tithe," because Christ began the church "before" his death, as applicable to the church - what other "law" is applicable, too?
What was it the Jerusalem assembly of elders and apostles stated the Gentiles were to "keep" in the Jewish law(s)?
What was it the Jerusalem assembly of elders and apostles stated the Gentiles were to "keep" in the Jewish law(s)?