What Do You Believe about the Millennium?

[Iconoclast]

1Th 1:1¶
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, to the assembly (Church) of Thessalonians in God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ!

This church of Thessalonians was made up of flesh and blood, spirit indwelt, people. That is what has always made up any, "church," spirit indwelt, people. What is one of the key purposes of that indwelling spirit? Romans 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. - The Spirit of adoption V 15, the first-fruit of the Spirit? V 23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (those in the Spirit indwelt church) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

The church is not the kingdom of God, IMHO. That is why those Thessalonians were concerned for Larry, Curly and Mo who had been Spirit indwelt flesh and blood friends in their church and had died. How are they going to be in the Kingdom when King Jesus comes?

for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

So also by resurrection from the dead and by instant change from corruption to incorruption of those still alive will God bring with Jesus into the kingdom of God.

And they will rule with him 1000 years. Called out for this very purpose. Elect for this very purpose. Predestined for this very purpose.


IMHO

Individual Christian's are part of the Kingdom of God.
When assemblies of individual Kingdom members meet for worship and preaching,it is the church assembled.
1 Thess4 explains what happened to saints who died already.
Paul says we all will be raised together.1thess4
Jesus in John 6 tells us that will be the last day..
Jesus rules now in the midst of His enemies. Psalm110
This continues until His enemies are His footstool 1cor15.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Individual Christian's are part of the Kingdom of God.
When assemblies of individual Kingdom members meet for worship and preaching,it is the church assembled.
1 Thess4 explains what happened to saints who died already.
Paul says we all will be raised together.1thess4
Jesus in John 6 tells us that will be the last day..
Jesus rules now in the midst of His enemies. Psalm110
This continues until His enemies are His footstool 1cor15.

Paul does not say that we all will be raised together.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul says that only the dead in Christ will rise first. Then those believers who have not yet died will be caught with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The unbelieving dead will not be raised until after the 1000-year reign of Christ in the Millennium.

 

[asterisktom]

Paul says that only the dead in Christ will rise first.

1“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.a 3Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.c" ESV

Here in Daniel we see believers and unbelievers raised together. The fact that Paul did not refer to the latter group is that it was not germane to his purpose in that epistle. He was focusing on comforting the Thessalonians concerning their loved ones who had died in Christ.

Moreover this event had already happened when Christ came in that first century generation - per His many promises. From that time onward all believers in Christ go directly to be with Him. And all unbelievers also will find themselves in His presence.

 

[canadyjd]

Only 9 out of 23 people on a Baptist discussion board believe in a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth? Wow. What has happened to Baptist believers?

They read scripture in context and came to a different conclusion than you.

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

Only 9 out of 23 people on a Baptist discussion board believe in a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth? Wow. What has happened to Baptist believers?

As the lone "not sure" vote, I think that too much importance is placed on the 1000 years (even if a literal reign on the pre- destruction earth). At best it is a fulfillment of some specific OT promises to Israel.

The destiny of the Saints is eternity with God as the bride of Christ ... His children living in His home, for eternity. A millennium is just a blip on the radar ... one last stop to finish some unfinished business before arriving home and beginning the celebration feast to end all celebration feasts.

 

[kyredneck]

ruling from Jerusalem

Lo here! Lo there! Lo here!

Not.

Luke 17:23-24

23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

'As lightning lights up the entire sky, from the east unto the west, so is He in His kingdom'. A marvelous fulfillment of many OT prophecies, I call it 'the enlargement':

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mt 24:31

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

God enlarge Japheth , And let him dwell in the tents of Shem .... Gen 9:27

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

 

[John of Japan]

Only 9 out of 23 people on a Baptist discussion board believe in a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth? Wow. What has happened to Baptist believers?

Be encouraged. It's now 16 to 9 in favor of Christ's Millennial Reign, with one "Not sure."

I think the Internet is spreading false/mistaken doctrine at a rapid rate. Theologians after WW2 declared postmil to be dead because of how evil mankind turned out to be in that war as well as before it. At that time it was only theological liberals who were postmil, but for some weird reason Reformed people have now gotten ahold of it.

Somehow, postmil has come back to life, mistaken though it is. That is in spite of the events after WW2 that also show how evil mankind is: many millions killed by Communists in various countries (far more than Hitler), Islamic terrorism, the current wickedness by the government of Myanmar, etc., etc. To me that resurrection of postmil in postwar America is really weird! Self-respecting liberals are now neo-orthodox, and theological conservatives have taken over the doctrine!

 

[George Antonios]

The Kingdom reign is already started

I hope you don't let children play on the hole of the asp (Isa.11:8) or with young lions (Isa.11:6).

 

[George Antonios]

Only 9 out of 23 people on a Baptist discussion board believe in a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth? Wow. What has happened to Baptist believers?

You are right, it is sad and symptomatic of unbelief. However, keep in mind that forums by their nature tend to attract the bitter, disgruntled, frustrated, and contentious. So it won't be a representative sample.

 

[canadyjd]

You are right, it is sad and symptomatic of unbelief. However, keep in mind that forums by their nature tend to attract the bitter, disgruntled, frustrated, and contentious. So it won't be a representative sample.

How sad, indeed.

When Christian brethren disagree with your conclusions on a very debatable issue, you slander them as “bitter, disgruntled, frustrated and contentious”

Since you post in the forums, do you “tend” to exempt yourself from your own slander? I suspect you think yourself the only one without the symptoms of unbelief.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

How sad, indeed.

When Christian brethren disagree with your conclusions on a very debatable issue, you slander them as “bitter, disgruntled, frustrated and contentious”

Since you post in the forums, do you “tend” to exempt yourself from your own slander? I suspect you think yourself the only one without the symptoms of unbelief.

peace to you

WINNER!!!

 

[George Antonios]

How sad, indeed.

When Christian brethren disagree with your conclusions on a very debatable issue, you slander them as “bitter, disgruntled, frustrated and contentious”

Since you post in the forums, do you “tend” to exempt yourself from your own slander? I suspect you think yourself the only one without the symptoms of unbelief.

peace to you

I highlighted "tend" for a reason, but you just couldn't help yourself.
I did not mention you.
You mentioned me.

 

[asterisktom]

Only 9 out of 23 people on a Baptist discussion board believe in a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth? Wow. What has happened to Baptist believers?

Baptists believers, as well as other Christians, now have had easier access to other sources of information besides what comes from behind their particular "sacred desk". IOW they have an even better opportunity to consider other views and then do as the Bereans did.

Of course many today still hang on every word their pastor spouts. I still remember someone telling me, "I wish my pastor was here. He could explain it to you better."!

I am optimistic about the truth becoming more and more widespread, and good or benign at least traditions becoming distinguished from the Christian-dishonoring kinds.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

1“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.a 3Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.c" ESV

Here in Daniel we see believers and unbelievers raised together. The fact that Paul did not refer to the latter group is that it was not germane to his purpose in that epistle. He was focusing on comforting the Thessalonians concerning their loved ones who had died in Christ.

Moreover this event had already happened when Christ came in that first century generation - per His many promises. From that time onward all believers in Christ go directly to be with Him. And all unbelievers also will find themselves in His presence.

This is wrong. You are assuming that what Daniel talks about is the same thing that Paul talks about, which is not true.

Furthermore, Paul is talking about bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4:16. He never teaches that all believers in their resurrected bodies now go directly to be with him. You could go to any cemetery where a believer has been recently buried and disprove that notion.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are right, it is sad and symptomatic of unbelief. However, keep in mind that forums by their nature tend to attract the bitter, disgruntled, frustrated, and contentious. So it won't be a representative sample.

I have not had the experience that forums by their nature tend to attract such people. I have encountered people like that here and elsewhere, but I'm grateful that it has not been the majority overall across various forums that I have been a part of so far.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Be encouraged. It's now 16 to 9 in favor of Christ's Millennial Reign, with one "Not sure."

I think the Internet is spreading false/mistaken doctrine at a rapid rate. Theologians after WW2 declared postmil to be dead because of how evil mankind turned out to be in that war as well as before it. At that time it was only theological liberals who were postmil, but for some weird reason Reformed people have now gotten ahold of it.

Somehow, postmil has come back to life, mistaken though it is. That is in spite of the events after WW2 that also show how evil mankind is: many millions killed by Communists in various countries (far more than Hitler), Islamic terrorism, the current wickedness by the government of Myanmar, etc., etc. To me that resurrection of postmil in postwar America is really weird! Self-respecting liberals are now neo-orthodox, and theological conservatives have taken over the doctrine!

Thanks for the encouragement and the background info.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

As the lone "not sure" vote, I think that too much importance is placed on the 1000 years (even if a literal reign on the pre- destruction earth). At best it is a fulfillment of some specific OT promises to Israel.

The destiny of the Saints is eternity with God as the bride of Christ ... His children living in His home, for eternity. A millennium is just a blip on the radar ... one last stop to finish some unfinished business before arriving home and beginning the celebration feast to end all celebration feasts.

I encourage you to think more about what it will mean to Christ and to God than what it means to Israel. God's holy name has been profaned by that nation. He is going to vindicate the holiness of His great name by what He does in the future concerning that nation (Ezek. 20, 36; Zech. 14).

The greatest and most important consideration for believing in a future literal 1000-year millennial kingdom is the glory of God that He will bring about for Himself during that time.

 

[atpollard]

I encourage you to think more about what it will mean to Christ and to God than what it means to Israel. God's holy name has been profaned by that nation. He is going to vindicate the holiness of His great name by what He does in the future concerning that nation (Ezek. 20, 36; Zech. 14).

The greatest and most important consideration for believing in a future literal 1000-year millennial kingdom is the glory of God that He will bring about for Himself during that time.

I don't know ... I never really viewed God as "having something to prove to ANYBODY".

The way I see the big picture, God started out with Adam and Eve and allowed man to demonstrate that starting out with a perfect relationship and one trivial command, mankind still revealed that we cannot do it on our own strength and NEED a savior. Just to prove it was not just one bad example, God started over with Noah. God tried again with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Each time God came along side and offered unmerited grace and called for faithful trust in Him. Each time the result of Adam was repeated anew. By the close of the Patriarchs, there is no room for doubt that man needs far more than "a chance".

Then comes Moses and Exodus and the Law and the Prophets. God offers man, who cannot follow simple directions or innately trust in a personal relationship, a detailed set of instructions. Armed with the Law, men can now see exactly where and how they are failing in even the simplest of tasks (loving God and loving each other). The river of blood and stench of burning flesh pouring from the temple offers an indication (a mere glimpse) at how terrible and pervasive is our problem with sin. Without a savior, there is only death and blood and fire and smoke. Still mankind fails utterly to learn the lesson and turn to God.

For the "Third Act" of his unfolding drama, God sends a Savior and unleashes His Spirit to do "a new thing". God revealed His ULTIMATE SOLUTION. God will die, destroying the power of death, and claim for Himself a people ... His people ... from every Nation, Tribe and Tongue. Redeemed by His blood and upheld by His Spirit and joined eternally to His heart. This is the "age" in which we live. The age of the outpouring of the grace of God on a people chosen to serve Him out of a fallen world.

I genuinely find the fourth act confusing. There are details clearly foreshadowed and details heavily veiled. I am content with that. They are God's details and I trust Him with them. What I see in His Word are promises that the WORLD (all nations) will come to Israel and pay homage to the Throne of David, and He who sits on the throne of David will rule over a time of peace. If this was fulfilled in the past, the Prophet's definition of "world" and "peace" seems rather unimpressive, so I leave open the door to the possibility that God will yet fulfill this particular promise in the future.

If it is a future event and that portion of Revelation is literal (a huge assumption), then it will serve to only prove the same thing one more time. Even if God Himself were to come and sit as king and create a world of perfect justice and peace ... the very next event in Revelation is all of mankind revolting at the first opportunity.

1. Man will not walk with God in a garden.
2. Man will not learn from a detailed set of Laws.
3. Man will not accept being saved by grace through faith.
4. Man will not follow God even if they see Him with their own eyes.

 

[asterisktom]

This is wrong. You are assuming that what Daniel talks about is the same thing that Paul talks about, which is not true.

Furthermore, Paul is talking about bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1 Thess. 4:16. He never teaches that all believers in their resurrected bodies now go directly to be with him. You could go to any cemetery where a believer has been recently buried and disprove that notion.

You think that a visit to the cemetery discredits my view? No, it only shows me that you are looking in the wrong place for the wrong evidence. Paul is not writing about bodies coming out of cemeteries. He is referring to those, already disembodied, who were (past tense) in Hades. These were the dead in Christ who went up to meet Christ in the air. And they were joined by the living survivors who were still on the Earth. It was this last group that was changed from their physical bodies. ("We shall be changed"). So this notion of graves opening up is sheer fantasy that comes from a serious misunderstanding of eschatology.

And, yes, Paul is referencing the same time period that Daniel was. In fact Paul shows in his writing a great indebtedness (if I can use that word for inspired writing) to Daniel. But that would be a subject for a different thread.

At any rate I guess I am writing this for others, not for someone whose very chosen moniker implies that his position requires no further cross-examination.

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul does not say that we all will be raised together.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul says that only the dead in Christ will rise first. Then those believers who have not yet died will be caught with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The unbelieving dead will not be raised until after the 1000-year reign of Christ in the Millennium.

It does say together.....I do not think people are going to be standing there with a stopwatch saying ...oh yeah they were raised 19 seconds before us.
The passage says nothing about the millennium or the reign of Christ as you suggest.
It just is not there unless you insert it.