What Do You Believe about the Millennium?

[asterisktom]

That's just inhuman.

If you are saying that Jesus now has no physical body, you are absolutely and completely wrong. John 20 is very clear that Thomas touched the physical body of Jesus.

Oh good grief. I get tired of repeating this. Nobody is denying the physical resurrection of Jesus. Over the years we have interacted, John, I was pretty sure that you understood Preterism better than that.

However John 20 says nothing about the body of Jesus now.

 

[asterisktom]

Yes, please clearly answer the question.

See my response to JofJ.

 

[asterisktom]

You have zero proof from Scripture that Jesus' body changed from the time that He ascended to when He was received in heaven.

You have zero proof that it was not. My proof was already given earlier. For starters I refer you to Hebrews 5"7.

 

[John of Japan]

Oh good grief. I get tired of repeating this. Nobody is denying the physical resurrection of Jesus. Over the years we have interacted, John, I was pretty sure that you understood Preterism better than that.

However John 20 says nothing about the body of Jesus now.

I'm not asking about the resurrection. I know what preterists normally believe about that. I'm asking about your specific statement about the body of Christ now.

 

[asterisktom]

I'm not asking about the resurrection. I know what preterists normally believe about that. I'm asking about your specific statement about the body of Christ now.

Then you had no need to even bring up John 20. And, no, I do not believe that Jesus has a physical body now. These are no longer the "days of His flesh". Hebrews 5:7. Hebrews 2:14-18 helps us to understand the purpose and duration of those "days of the flesh".

 

[Aaron]

I'm not speaking for Tom, but if the Premillennialist hangup is with the word "spiritual" in regards to the kind of body that Jesus has, I want to remind them of what our favorite Apostle said:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
​

Also remember that the disciples on the Road to Emmaus did not recognize Christ as He walked with them.

When someone says "physical" he usually means made of the matter of this world. That clearly is not the case with the new body. We will be changed, we're told, and we will see Him as He is, because we will be like Him.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
​

And when a Darbyist says "spiritual," he usually means lacking substance, vaporous. But that is not the case either. It's this life that is the vapor. The spiritual is the substance. So don't task me, like the fools who opposed Paul, with answering all your questions about the nature of this new body. I will merely answer as Paul, the new body is like our old ones as much as a flowering rose bush is like the seed from which it sprouted.

Your hangup with the word "spiritual" is your hangup. Not God's.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[asterisktom]

Visibly.

To be honest I am not sure if it was visibly or not. I think it was, but, of course, I do not see it as worldwide. Moreover I tend to think that the tremendous change happened during that moment in the evening sacrifice that Josephus writes about where the voice was heard, "Let us depart from here." That, IMV, may very well be the moment of the resurrection of those who died in Christ and the rapture of the living saints.

But I cannot be dogmatic on this. To the best of my ability I am trying not to go beyond what is written in Scripture.

 

[asterisktom]

For those of you who insist that since Christ is still the Son of Man - which I also believe - I ask the following question: Does this designation require Him to be physical? Is the essence of humanity inextricably bound with physicality?

If you answer "Yes" then my next question is: Do those who die in the faith cease to be human? The Spirits under the altar, did they cease to be human?

 

[Iconoclast]

Say hi to Racine for me. I went to HS there; Dad pastored Faith Baptist Church there for 5 years (no longer a church there).




My point was that the "progress" of Mankind is not upward, not even sidewise. It is steadily down, down, down. The 21st century is the most wicked and immoral since Noah's Flood. Communism still destroys lives all over the world. The worst wars ever were in modern times. 70 million babies have been murdered through abortion in the US alone, and maybe even a billion killed in China that way. Japan has twice the abortion per capita as the wicked US, and in the meantime parents in India abort girl babies by the millions because they want boy babies.

Can you honestly claim that things are not more wicked than ever in this world?

What I can't figure out is why Calvinists and others who believe in the depravity of man (as I do) can possibly think the world is getting better. Calvinism and postmil are logically and theologically incompatible.

I am in agreement with the depraved condition of mankind.
The men I am reading are not looking so much for the "world to get better".
They are looking for the Spirit of God to convert multitudes of people,
New Birth leading to unprecedented growth as the kingdom spreads worldwide.
The premill system is projecting a constant decline that we cannot stop.
The whole one-world government scenario, leading to the seven year period, with a break three and a half years in,Then GREAT TRIBULATION.
With this virus and conspiracy theories, I can so see how many premill people can see pieces falling into place.
People are looking at the current government over reach and I have to say, I do not intend to take this vaccine. I do not trust these people.

Maybe some of my premill teaching has not totally evaporated

I think I am on the correct path, but if my study efforts are wrong, I would not hesitate if I see any of those elements taking place, one world Government, 10 nation confederacy, rebuilt temple, etc, I would know enough to take precaution.

The book I am working through is called the Mission of God A manifesto of Hope For Society, Joe Boot
https://www.rebelalliancemedia.com/post/read-this-next-the-mission-of-God
It is saying we need to get back to Christian living both in the Church and in the culture.
John MacArthur recently said the Church loses down here, and until we a raptured we have little chance for success.
These men and the Puritans before them had a biblical vision of the Gospel overcoming all the evil. I am early on in the book but enjoying many of the quotes.
Some have identified the danger of the postmill optimism as not preparing the churches for what is to come as society deteriorates.
I am aware of that...which David Englesma suggested back in 1995.
here;
A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism
he has both postmill and premill as wrong???

At this point I am moving forward with an optimistic outlook.

 

[asterisktom]

Preterists are the poster children for Premillennialists.

Or is it dart boards?

 

[John of Japan]

Then you had no need to even bring up John 20. And, no, I do not believe that Jesus has a physical body now. These are no longer the "days of His flesh". Hebrews 5:7. Hebrews 2:14-18 helps us to understand the purpose and duration of those "days of the flesh".

This is unorthodox, mistaken, un-Scriptural, and absolutely wrong. No orthodox or conservative or fundamental theologian believes this.

 

[John of Japan]

For those of you who insist that since Christ is still the Son of Man - which I also believe - I ask the following question: Does this designation require Him to be physical? Is the essence of humanity inextricably bound with physicality?

If you answer "Yes" then my next question is: Do those who die in the faith cease to be human? The Spirits under the altar, did they cease to be human?

Jesus is eternally human. To be human requires a physical body, just as there is a physical Heaven and Hell.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:20 AM Pacific.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

For those of you who insist that since Christ is still the Son of Man - which I also believe - I ask the following question: Does this designation require Him to be physical? Is the essence of humanity inextricably bound with physicality?

If you answer "Yes" then my next question is: Do those who die in the faith cease to be human? The Spirits under the altar, did they cease to be human?

They are only human spirits; they are not fully living humans. Revelation 6:9 reads,

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It does not say, "I saw under the altar them that were slain . . .," as if their souls are the sum total of those who were slain.

The Bible says that the body without the spirit is dead; it never says that the spirit without the body is dead.

"The dead in Christ" in 1 Thess. 4:16 refers to the bodies of those believers. It is not the spirits of those believers that will rise from Hades or any other place--it is their bodies that will rise because it is their bodies that are dead in Christ.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

​

Also remember that the disciples on the Road to Emmaus did not recognize Christ as He walked with them.

Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. (Lk. 24:16 KJV)

NAU Luke 24:16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. (Lk. 24:16 NAU)

NET Luke 24:16 (but their eyes were kept from recognizing him).

NKJ Luke 24:16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.

CSB Luke 24:16 But they were prevented from recognizing Him.

ESV Luke 24:16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.

NIV Luke 24:16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

NLT Luke 24:16 But God kept them from recognizing him.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Inappropriate language that betrays a wrong spirit.

 

[Aaron]

Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. (Lk. 24:16 KJV)

Because He appeared in another form. Mark 16

Mary didn't recognized him until he called her name. John 20

But that's all beside the point. I noticed you didn't deal with the main thrust of Paul's teaching, that it is raised a spiritual body.

Inappropriate language that betrays a wrong spirit.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Because He appeared in another form. Mark 16

Mary didn't recognized him until he called her name. John 20

But that's all beside the point. I noticed you didn't deal with the main thrust of Paul's teaching, that it is raised a spiritual body.

Paul also teaches that it is the bodies of believers that will be raised from the dead; he does not teach that their disembodied spirits will be raised from Hades:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

As I have already said repeatedly, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not teach that disembodied spirits will be raised from Hades. It teaches that the physical bodies of the dead in Christ will rise:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[percho]

I am in agreement with the depraved condition of mankind.
The men I am reading are not looking so much for the "world to get better".
They are looking for the Spirit of God to convert multitudes of people,
New Birth leading to unprecedented growth as the kingdom spreads worldwide.
The premill system is projecting a constant decline that we cannot stop.
The whole one-world government scenario, leading to the seven year period, with a break three and a half years in,Then GREAT TRIBULATION.
With this virus and conspiracy theories, I can so see how many premill people can see pieces falling into place.
People are looking at the current government over reach and I have to say, I do not intend to take this vaccine. I do not trust these people.

Maybe some of my premill teaching has not totally evaporated

I think I am on the correct path, but if my study efforts are wrong, I would not hesitate if I see any of those elements taking place, one world Government, 10 nation confederacy, rebuilt temple, etc, I would know enough to take precaution.

The book I am working through is called the Mission of God A manifesto of Hope For Society, Joe Boot
https://www.rebelalliancemedia.com/post/read-this-next-the-mission-of-God
It is saying we need to get back to Christian living both in the Church and in the culture.
John MacArthur recently said the Church loses down here, and until we a raptured we have little chance for success.
These men and the Puritans before them had a biblical vision of the Gospel overcoming all the evil. I am early on in the book but enjoying many of the quotes.
Some have identified the danger of the postmill optimism as not preparing the churches for what is to come as society deteriorates.
I am aware of that...which David Englesma suggested back in 1995.
here;
A Defense of (Reformed) Amillennialism
he has both postmill and premill as wrong???



At this point I am moving forward with an optimistic outlook.

Has the whole world ever corporately followed the same demands, of simple things, mask, social distant, lock downs, demanded vaccine of a vaccine that has questions for many, including people that have been in the vaccine field most of their lives, how many can gather together.

This is world wide. Never could have been put together just a few short years ago.

This is going to get a whole lot worse before Jesus steps in. This is just the first worldwide test. There is less individual freedom in the world today than since the founding of the United States of America.

But the devil has been chained!

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

What year was that written?

Where do you believe the commands are coming from. Ware a mask. Stay 6 feet apart.

Is that who the battle is really with even today?

As I posted before, which all of you glossed over, IMHO this battle began when the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And as Yogi said, "It ain't over until it's over."

 

[percho]

Paul also teaches that it is the bodies of believers that will be raised from the dead; he does not teach that their disembodied spirits will be raised from Hades:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

As I have already said repeatedly, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not teach that disembodied spirits will be raised from Hades. It teaches that the physical bodies of the dead in Christ will rise:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Methinks souls will not be left in Hades, because of resurrection, in body, resurrected, incorruptible.

Once again IMHO.

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:22,23
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: 1 Cor 15:52
But someone will say, “How are the dead (people, Larry, Curly & Mo souls) raised up? And with what body do they come?” 1 Cor 15:35

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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This thread will be closed sometime after 1:20 AM Pacific.

This thread is closed.